Armed Police

[theocd]

Hi,

After reading the 'ingame screens' topic I saw that many people had put, for the end of their mission, that the 'Suspect was taken down in a burst of gunfire'. Now this got me thinking because in Britain all weapons used by Armed Police are Semi-Automatic on the basis that if it will take one bullet to stop the suspect then he should only be given one bullet. (Of course Semi-Automatic firing means you can give him another if he resists! )

My question to people from America/Germany/Holland etc is what are your Armed Police's restrictions? Are you on the 'One-Shot Policy' like Britain or can you spray them up and down the wall if you can justify it?

Many thanks,

The OC-D

[Hoppah]

If a suspect brings other people like police officers in immediate danger with a firearm, you need to do whatever it takes to stop him. That doesn't mean you can empty a whole magazine on him (excessive force). But I can't imagine the rules say you HAVE TO fire only 1 round (to not lose your job) if someone pulls a gun on a police officer, even in the UK. I don't know the real rules though.

Most police officers carry guns in the Netherlands and I know there are strict regulations here. Even about pulling a sidearm. When a suspect is not complying officers can't just pull a gun here. But like I said before, I don't know the official rules (yet).

[MikesPhotos]

Hi,

After reading the 'ingame screens' topic I saw that many people had put, for the end of their mission, that the 'Suspect was taken down in a burst of gunfire'. Now this got me thinking because in Britain all weapons used by Armed Police are Semi-Automatic on the basis that if it will take one bullet to stop the suspect then he should only be given one bullet. (Of course Semi-Automatic firing means you can give him another if he resists! )

My question to people from America/Germany/Holland etc is what are your Armed Police's restrictions? Are you on the 'One-Shot Policy' like Britain or can you spray them up and down the wall if you can justify it?

Many thanks,

The OC-D

My first job out of high school was working for a Law firm that represented the Long Beach Police Dept, Los Angeles Police Protective League and the PORAC (Peace Officers Research Association of California) legal defense fund. We primarily focused on FLSA labor law and Use of Force/Officer Involved shootings. Some departments, especially those with single officer patrol cars will teach their officers that when deadly force is necessary, and this is key, if you feel the need to use deadly force, if you truly feel there is no other option at your disposal but to utilize the last resort of DEADLY force, you use maximum force which usually ends up being emptying the weapon, reloading, and securing the scene. With the adrenaline running high and everything else involved in an OIS, it can take but seconds to discharge 6 to 10 rounds. Being by yourself, the goal is to make sure that the suspect cannot and will not return fire or continue doing whatever it is that necessitated the use of deadly force. 1 bullet or 30, dead is dead.

Other departments which have the benefit of additional officers (2 man patrol cars and immediate close by backup) such as LAPD will have more restraint because they know that even if they do not kill the suspect on the first seconds of the engagement, they have additional help and resources available. The flip side is the group shot mentality though. It turns out that when multiple officers are firing, the chaos caused will cause them to fire more rounds due to an inability to be completely sure that the other reports are from other officers and not from the suspect or additional suspects.

Current data I have is from 2002 and states in LA County:

Shots Fired Per Officer With Only 1 Officer Involved 3.59

Shots Fired Per Officer With 2 Officers Involved 4.98

Shots Fired Per Officer With More Than 2 Officers Involved 6.48

Riverside county would usually have 1 officer on patrol with the nearest backup being 10+ minutes sometimes. They usually were the ones who would empty their weapons, and in bunch shootings, you'd have 50+ rounds discharged.

What is there to take from this? Well, I dont know what excessive force is when it comes to deadly force. 1 bullet, 50 bullets, 100 bullets, dead is dead. Officers DO NOT and I stress that... DO NOT shoot to wound. If a weapon is discharged, the situation has reached a point where deadly force is felt to be necessary.

Out here at least, no one uses fully automatic weapons though. Even the submachine guns and AR-15's carried are semi auto, or 3 round burst. Pistols are all semi automatic. For those who are unfamiliar with the terms, a Semi-automatic pistol fires 1 round for every time the officer pulls the trigger. The difference between a revolver and a semi-automatic pistol is that instead of a cylinder revolving, a round is semi-automatically fed from the magazine up into the chamber with each trigger pull. With a fully automatic weapon, you hold down the trigger and rounds are fully automatically fed into the chamber without requiring individual trigger pulls for each one.

As for 1 bullet is all it takes to stop a suspect, you must have no practical experience in Law Enforcement, Fire/EMS, or Military. With drugs, alcohol, mental instability, adrenaline, and everything else out there, it is unfortunately rare that 1 pistol round will stop and drop a target. Add into the situation the fact that people tend not to stand still and make really good targets, you end up with the, some respects, abysmal hit record of 51% and below. So if you need 4 rounds to stop a suspect, more often then not, you have to fire 8+! You want to get into a lot of trouble? Have a suspect with a fully automatic rifle with 30 rounds, and you have 1 very small pistol bullet. Or a gang banger with 15 rounds and you have 1 bullet. Even if you hit him, if he's on drugs, or really amped, or whatever, you might have only made him really pissed off and now he's got 15 rounds to put you down.

I hope that answers your questions a bit better. Ultimately, no officer wants to ever use deadly force with other options available, but unfortunately, sometimes there is no other choice.

[hunter42]

in Britain all weapons used by Armed Police are Semi-Automatic on the basis that if it will take one bullet to stop the suspect then he should only be given one bullet. (Of course Semi-Automatic firing means you can give him another if he resists! )

UK Police use MP5s (among others) and almost all MP5s have a selective fire mode that allows single, burst fire and fully automatic. So it is possible for a suspect to go down in a "burst of gunfire". Unless the police use the MP5 SFA

[Grim_Wizard]

Current data I have is from 2002 and states in LA County:

Shots Fired Per Officer With Only 1 Officer Involved 3.59

Shots Fired Per Officer With 2 Officers Involved 4.98

Shots Fired Per Officer With More Than 2 Officers Involved 6.48

How the hell do you fre a half of a round lolz.

Around here I don't know and I hope I won't have to find out.

[Hoppah]

How the hell do you fre a half of a round lolz.

You haven't finished primary education yet?

Example: 18 shots have been fired by 5 police officers.

Do the math: 18 / 5 = 3,6 shots fired per officer.

[Grim_Wizard]

Ya I know I was being a smart flower. lolz.

[LittleFoX]

The armed response unit in holland (dutch: Arrestatieteam) also isn't allowed to use their primary weapon (usualy an MP5) on automatic stance. There has to be permission from somewere up high (higher than the chief of police). There also has to be special permisson of police snipers to shoot at suspects.

[917893678251]

The armed response unit in holland (dutch: Arrestatieteam) also isn't allowed to use their primary weapon (usualy an MP5) on automatic stance. There has to be permission from somewere up high (higher than the chief of police). There also has to be special permisson of police snipers to shoot at suspects.

I think it's the same in china,but there are no limits for firing.Police use kung fu to arrest people there.China sort of has no human rights though,police can torture you for something they want.The armed police force in China was SAPF(Special armed police force)

[Grim_Wizard]

In China I think the military responds, I saw it on some police video show.

[jab16]

there not as bad as the Spetznas though. Let me tell you those guys are serious if you resist wile your on the ground you will get kicked in the face or stepped on. But.......... those guys are extreamly effective. Also kind of funny but the Spetznas do raids on trucks with helicopters and vans, ect carring "Black Gold" or really high end caviar that is illegal.

[Guest Taylor]

Wow Mike, seems like you've done everything there is to know without actually being a cop lol (not being sarcastic or derogatory towards you FYI)

I think that if someone needs to have a bullet shot at him, there needs to be more bullets coming out the barrel.

For instance: if someone is trying to shoot a cop, and the cops life is in danger, just save the tax payer money, and kill him. Same with someone trying to rape a woman, HEY or vice versa! I know it's happened....

I love armed police, it gives a deterrent, and makes you respect obeying the law a little more..

[Grim_Wizard]

there not as bad as the Spetznas though. Let me tell you those guys are serious if you resist wile your on the ground you will get kicked in the face or stepped on. But.......... those guys are extreamly effective. Also kind of funny but the Spetznas do raids on trucks with helicopters and vans, ect carring "Black Gold" or really high end caviar that is illegal.

If you struggle they'll take your arms, break them, force them behind you and if you still resist will pull on those arms with they're foot on your back and break it. Don't mess with the Spetznas

[917893678251]

In China I think the military responds, I saw it on some police video show.

No,Military(PLA) only responds when it's terroism,regular tactical units in china are called Special armed police force(SAPF),SWCU also responds when there is terroism(Snow wolf commando unit)

[Guest Taylor]

No,Military(PLA) only responds when it's terroism,regular tactical units in china are called Special armed police force(SAPF),SWCU also responds when there is terroism(Snow wolf commando unit)

I'd love to see their special police forces in action..

[theocd]

@Hunter42 Our police use the MP5A3 which only has the modes 'Safe' and 'Semi' so that rules that out.

@MikesPhotos Of course I have no practical experience in any of those fields but what I mean is that when the suspect if struck by the bullet whether he surrenders or continues to struggle is what is meant by one bullet being taken to 'stop' him. I know adrenaline, drugs and alcohol etc have an effect but even through an adrenalised state bullets tend to make people surrender. Also in certain states Officer are told to shoot to wound when people are threatening suicide along with other things (e.g. Hostage Taking)the order is given to shoot to wound because it means you prevent the (possibly mentally unstable) suspect from completing the act of committing deadly harm against themselves. As well, hit rate was not taken into account as those bullets generally don't count towards stopping a target, only rounds that struck the target are taken into account. Finally, although in America (almost) all police forces carry guns and are allowed to shoot if found in that situation, in Britain our Armed Police are only told to shoot with clear line of sight, otherwise you can strike all sorts of objects you don't mean to.

Thanks for the help and more comments would be appreciated.

The OC-D

[jab16]

ummm i dont know what you mean by in Britain our Armed Police are only told to shoot with clear line of sight, otherwise you can strike all sorts of objects you don't mean to. That is sort of a universal rule for all police in america patrol officers will RARLY shoot at a suspect if they dont have a clear shot.

[festival]

in answer to the original question, in my opinion if there are for instance 10 officers with guns drawn and one suspect with a gun, the suspect raises the gun and each of the 10 officers feel threatened and fire one shot each, that would be a hail of gunfire. It doesnt just mean someone empties their mag. In some cases officers would shoot until the threat is over, resulting in multiple shots per individual maybe. thats my opinion. not an expert.

[theocd]

@jab16 That's basically what I meant.

@Festival True but it is rare that there'll be ten armed officers in on place at once.

The OC-D

[MikesPhotos]

@MikesPhotos Of course I have no practical experience in any of those fields but what I mean is that when the suspect if struck by the bullet whether he surrenders or continues to struggle is what is meant by one bullet being taken to 'stop' him. I know adrenaline, drugs and alcohol etc have an effect but even through an adrenalised state bullets tend to make people surrender.

I think the key thing here is no practical experience when you state that "bullets tend to make people surrender." In the 14 years that I've been involved in both Emergency Services and the Military, I've found that to be patently false. More often then not, if there is an incident involving firearm discharge, the situation has already progressed to a state so bad that peaceful compliance and surrender is beyond rare, even after being struck by bullets. More often then not, the suspect still continues to struggle and resist to the best of their ability which is why even during transport, there are rules of regulations regarding chain of custody and protection for the Paramedics and EMTs treating. These people do NOT want to go to jail and will do anything and everything to resist, even long after being shot. Rarely do you get the young kid who watched too many movies and ended up with a rude reminder that real life ain't the same when he points a gun at a cop and ends up in a crying ball with a gunshot wound. Those are about the only ones that ever have that bright light come on above their head that says "Wow, you know, maybe I shouldn't have done that! I think i'll just let the nice men and women in uniform do what they need to while I lay here and think about the consequences of my actions."

Also in certain states Officer are told to shoot to wound when people are threatening suicide along with other things (e.g. Hostage Taking)the order is given to shoot to wound because it means you prevent the (possibly mentally unstable) suspect from completing the act of committing deadly harm against themselves.

Can you provide ANY evidence at all to support this claim? I spoke with two members of the Metropolitan Police Service in the UK who are friends of mine and both of them stated, well, to put it in their terms, "Rubbish!" Even a rudimentary google search turned up the following articles:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/art...ound/article.do

Met Commissioner Sir Ian Blair today defended the actions of police firearms officers in the wake of the Markham Square shooting, saying the idea of being able to "shoot to wound" was "fiction".

An interesting read is this New York Times article that outlines various sides of the situation with the great quote:

“You take Olympic shooters, and they practice all the time, and they can hit a fly off a cow’s nose from 100 yards,” said Mr. Cerar, the retired commander. “But if you put a gun in that cow’s hand, you will get a different reaction from the Olympic shooter.”

If you can provide any information on an actual Shoot to Disable/Shoot to Wound protocol, I'd love to see it. Even special operations units, such as SWAT marksmen, and such are trained to take the target out with the highest degree of probability which is usually a head or center mass shot.

But you have to understand, even shooting an arm or a leg can be fatal. If the femoral artery in your leg is hit, even with immediate EMS assistance, its an iffy chance of survival. The suspect will literally bleed out in seconds.

As well, hit rate was not taken into account as those bullets generally don't count towards stopping a target, only rounds that struck the target are taken into account. Finally, although in America (almost) all police forces carry guns and are allowed to shoot if found in that situation, in Britain our Armed Police are only told to shoot with clear line of sight, otherwise you can strike all sorts of objects you don't mean to.

Thanks for the help and more comments would be appreciated.

The OC-D

I'm puzzled by your first statement. Hit rate is a mathematical equation derived from Number of shots fired divided by the Number of shots taken = Hit Rate. Every single discharge of the firearm is taken into account.

As for the clear line of sight, the same policies exist in America as they do throughout most of the Western Civilization. The LAPD Policy manual states:

PROTECTION OF GENERAL PUBLIC. Regardless of the nature of the crime or the justification for firing at a suspect, officers must remember that their basic responsibility is to protect the public. Officers shall not fire under conditions that would subject bystanders or hostages to death or possible injury, except to preserve life or prevent serious bodily injury. Firing under such conditions is not justified unless the failure to do so at the time would create a substantial immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury.

Why would anyone concievably discharge a firearm unless they have a clear line of sight at the suspect? Unlike in the movies, if an officer is pinned down, they don't just raise the gun above the wall or car and blindly shoot. One of the most critical aspects in Use of Force training today is teaching officers to not lock in on their targets and get tunnel vision, but to see the entire surroundings and situation so that they can better visualize the dangers involved in returning fire.

I hope those two articles at least help dispel some myths and give better insight into what goes on during an officer Involved Shooting, regardless of locale.

--- Just saw a reply that i missed so adding down below

@Festival True but it is rare that there'll be ten armed officers in on place at once.

The OC-D

Actually it isn't all that rare. In the Los Angeles County study conducted there were 150 shootings and 438 officers actively participated as shooters. That averages out to be about just under 3 officers per shooting. The most common incident was the termination foot pursuit or vehicle pursuit with multiple active shooters, usually 6+. On top of that, over 10% back in the early 2000's and latest figures are pushing it closer to 20% now, less than lethal devices were employed before deadly force. That includes tasers, bean bags, and OC spray.

[jab16]

If you can provide any information on an actual Shoot to Disable/Shoot to Wound protocol, I'd love to see it. Even special operations units, such as SWAT marksmen, and such are trained to take the target out with the highest degree of probability which is usually a head or center mass shot.

But you have to understand, even shooting an arm or a leg can be fatal. If the femoral artery in your leg is hit, even with immediate EMS assistance, its an iffy chance of survival. The suspect will literally bleed out in seconds.

Good point, I am one of the top 100 marksman for my age in the US. I have been tought amoung making ghillie suits, and evasion tatics, where to shoot a person. Mike is right a well placed bullet to the area around Femoral artery will most likely cause damage to it. If it dose cause damage and it hits the right spot, there is a good chance that without proper medical treatment the person that was shot has a chance of dying depending on the amount of blood lost in a few seconds. And again mike is corrrect about SWAT marksman, they are going to take the best shot which would again like mike said the head or the center mass. There are multiple reasons for this, for one marksman will alomost always choose a elivated postition over ground level due to the view of the suspect but also the probability of taking the target out. But people need to remember that a shot from a makrsman is a one of the last options from police. They will almost always wait for a order to shoot before they procide to pull the triger.

On the subject of bullets and surendering, if your high on drugs and you get cought. There is a almost 100% chance that that person is going to resist arrest because they basically are not aware of whats going on. Now if you a normal criminal, and they have the motovation to they will do everything they can to resist, which in some cases causes them to hurt themselves further.

[theocd]

@Mikesphotos First please don't talk to me like I'm five. I appreciate your help but your tone is really offending me. I believe you to be knowledgable in these fields and are in the military and Emergency Services (yet have no proof). I came asking for help on the matters yet all you seem to be doing is putting me dow. I came for advice on other cultures not a war on information and Googling skills. If you wish to help fine, but please don't make it cutting.

Most people when struck by bullets in the areas that Police Marksmen aim for normally die or go into severe trauma, I'm not talking about being winged in the leg I am talking about being struck in the chest by a bullet - that's what i mean by the one shot policy, not one bullet fired and missed.

Secondly, don't use two guys you know as an excuse for general knowledge but I accept the fact that I may have been wrong. It was in an article I was reading that may well have been mis-informed.

Thirdly, in the 'Markham Square' article you quote, the man shot directly at the police who enterd his house - thus sparking a dangerous situation where the only option was lethal force. (Also Ian Blair is no longer the Met Police Commissioner and his quote about gas not being in our armoury is wrong now because since then the armoury of our armed police has increased to include more Less-than-lehtal options)

'I'm puzzled by your first statement. Hit rate is a mathematical equation derived from Number of shots fired divided by the Number of shots taken = Hit Rate. Every single discharge of the firearm is taken into account. ' This confuses me. Surely you mean number of shots taken divided by number of shots that hit the target = hit rate? Shots fired and shots taken mean effectively the same thing (i.e. a bullet left the barrel of the firearm).

Also, you complain me of using movies as a basis, which I didn't, yet you use them yourselves mentioning about firing over the top of the car without line of sight. Also, I'm not talking about tunnel vision, I was merely refering to the blind firing you mention about round corners and over objects.

Finnally, the bit directed to Festival I was talking about where I live. I know in the U.S. three Patrol cars arrive and you instantly have 6 armed officers at your disposal yet where I am, a man with a Shotgun was holed up in his house and 'the' local ARU turned up. That's two officers with firearms and two more 30 mins away with our Armoured Land Rover able to be deployed in another hour.

@jab16 I understand what you are saying about medical attention but surely in most situations immediate medical attention is available? Also, SWAT marksmen are deployed to shoot to kill (as in head/centre of mass shot) but what Mike was saying about on the ground officers possibly hitting an area other than that?

The OC-D

[jab16]

@jab16 I understand what you are saying about medical attention but surely in most situations immediate medical attention is available? Also, SWAT marksmen are deployed to shoot to kill (as in head/centre of mass shot) but what Mike was saying about on the ground officers possibly hitting an area other than that?

\

Well no medical attention will not be imeaditly avalible. The SWAT team will do almost every thing they can before they give the order for the marksman to shoot. Depending on the situation the police will need to check to make sure there are no other threats. And because snipers aim for the head and center mass usially by the time the suspect is being transported on at the ER the suspect will be dead. Plus firefighters and ems will not go into a area called the hot zone. The hot zone is the area around where the event is taking place usially 1-2 blocks. If there is any reason to beleve there are more subjects then again ems and fire will not go into the area. Because of this police will usially have to transport the suspect to the ambulance before ems can treat him. Proceding reception of the wounded suspect police will follow the ambulance to the hospital and stay with him until he either dies or is discharged. But sadly most of the time the marksman pulls the trigger the suspect will die.

[Guest Taylor]

theocd, get over it dude. he ain't treating you like you're 5. he's just giving you the facts, and sorry if you don't know how to handle the truth...

[theocd]

I am over it, all i made was a polite request. I didn't shout it in his face. Secondly, he was Patronising me by highlighting things like ' think the key thing here is no practical experience' and 'Can you provide ANY evidence at all' when more appropriate things could have been written.

Anyway, that's all I'm saying on that.

The OC-D