The Problem with Mayberry Reskins

[WildcatsMike]

First and foremost,

 

I am by no means trying to start drama or anything like that. I'm simply trying to state MY OPINION.

 

So, if you haven't noticed, a lot of people have recently tried to get their start on modding by reskinning the mayberry mod. And by a lot I mean A LOT.

 

Oh, so they're just reskinning the mayberry mod? Whats so bad about that?

 

The problem is, most of the time these people will try to call it a full mod. Reskinning is NOWHERE close to a full mod. I understand that reskinning takes time, but compared to other stuff like modelling, scripting, etc, it's a piece of cake. AND a lot of the time people want to be treated like they made a full mod. This is because a lot of people that play this game don't know how mods are made. I'm not here to say you can't reskin the mayberry mod, i'm here to ask 2 things:

 

1. Stop calling it a full mod. Most of the time what you are doing is a SUBmod. Call it accordingly.

2. Keep your reskins private. (Giving it to people via dm is NOT private)

 

I've gone and done some looking, and i've found 4 released or finished private Mayberry Reskins that have been handed out in the past month or so. Also had a quick look at the mod development/concepts forum and theres a couple more being worked on.

 

This is how modding communities die. After the bunch of stuff that happened earlier, and now we're getting the same mod over and over and over again. There are still people out there that are working hard on their work, and I thank those people very much.

 

I get that a lot of the time people want to play a mod thats set in their hometown, so they reskin like this. Great. I get it, it feels really cool to play as your local fire/ems/police. But if everyone reskinned like this, the mod section would be flooded with tons and tons of Mayberry submods. 

 

It's been bugging me because people have been requesting me to play these submods on my channel, and I have refused because its literally just the mayberry mod. If I wanted to play the mayberry mod, i'd just play the actual mayberry mod. And at the end of the day, the credits on these reskins should be "Made by the Mayberry mod team w/ reskins by ______." 

 

ANYWAY, that's my 2 cents. I don't normally do stuff like this, but after thinking about it for a while i've decided I needed to get this off my chest. Thank you for reading.

 

 

[NASCAR248810]

Is there some kind of copyright infringement when Sub Mods are published?   

[Pottyscotty]

Agreed completely, apart from properly edited versions of mods (By me for private use or by a couple of others who have ASKED the original authors before sending me their version) my mod folder is free of reskins - As you said, if I wanted to play XYX mod, I will play XYX mod.

[itchboy]

Is there some kind of copyright infringement when Sub Mods are published?   

No there isn't. The issue Mike is talking about is that reskins and texture edits to an existing mod do not make it an entirely new mod. There is no copyright issue unless the author explicitly states that his/her content shall not be used, yet a certain individual chooses to disobey this command.

[WildcatsMike]

Agreed completely, apart from properly edited versions of mods (By me for private use or by a couple of others who have ASKED the original authors before sending me their version) my mod folder is free of reskins - As you said, if I wanted to play XYX mod, I will play XYX mod.

I don't have anything against private mods, if you edit a mod for yourself - great. If you go and distribute it after that, then it becomes an issue. I've seen some of these reskins be "private" and they then give out copies via pm. That defeats the whole purpose of it being Private. 

[itchboy]

I don't have anything against private mods, if you edit a mod for yourself - great. If you go and distribute it after that, then it becomes an issue. I've seen some of these reskins be "private" and they then give out copies via pm. That defeats the whole purpose of it being Private. 

I personally had an experience where a certain member used my LA mod content in a "private" mod, but wanted to share it via PM to various YouTubers. I had to tell him that private means yourself. For context, you dont go around showing your **** to other people because its private and only you (and your significant other) should see it.

 

If you're interested in talking about a little something special, PM me.

[Pottyscotty]

I don't have anything against private mods, if you edit a mod for yourself - great. If you go and distribute it after that, then it becomes an issue. I've seen some of these reskins be "private" and they then give out copies via pm. That defeats the whole purpose of it being Private. 

I personally had an experience where a certain member used my LA mod content in a "private" mod, but wanted to share it via PM to various YouTubers. I had to tell him that private means yourself. For context, you dont go around showing your **** to other people because its private and only you (and your significant other) should see it.

 

If you're interested in talking about a little something special, PM me.

I have heard of and seen these kind of problems which is why I was sure to word these lines in my Mod's readme how I did;

 

-Although you can post about your private edits (Be this pictures, videos or just in writing), these modifications must not be shared between anyone but yourself.

-You may not use any textures, models, scripts, audio or files from this mod for another modification unless it is private (Once again, Private meaning for YOURSELF only).

[Corsair]

That certain member was me. I asked the moderators if it was okay to have it private but only give it to certain youtubers. I was wrong. Good thing I asked itchboy because I wouldn't have posted a long time on the forum. This was the reason why I couldn't give it to you WildCatsMike. Sorry

[WildcatsMike]

That certain member was me. I asked the moderators if it was okay to have it private but only give it to certain youtubers. I was wrong. Good thing I asked itchboy because I wouldn't have posted a long time on the forum. This was the reason why I couldn't give it to you WildCatsMike. Sorry

Completely understandable. You did the right thing by asking. Nothing to be sorry about. 

[BeastyBill88]

This is the reason why the mods I have edited are for personal/private use only and won't be released to anyone no matter how many times I get asked, but also because I don't trust people (no offence) as it only takes 1 person to release it and its all over the internet. I only post updates to show off what I have done out of interest from others and get their opinions on things. Yeah I have called them different names to the originals, but the point is no one else is going to be using them so I can call them what I please.

The problem I have noticed (same as you Mike and everyone else) is that people have started becoming lazy and reskinning submods of the Mayberry one. For example the Buston (sub)mod has about 3 different reskins of it... WHY?! Why does it need that goddamn many... Now I'm not sure if the Fairfax County mod counts though, I know it did start out as a reskin because it uses the Mayberry mod as a base but in v2.0 most of the vehicles were changed out from the original ones and in v3 they plan on having a new map all together. So it is under going a lot of changes to make it a different mod compared to the original.

Now I can understand that people want to replicate their home town/city/county/state etc but Jesus... No offence but please use a different based mod or start learning how to make a new one. I know the damn Mayberry map off the back of my hand now...

 

I for one will be starting to learn how to make 3D models/conversions etc for EM4 & GTA. As soon as I get my new PC... Whenever that will be its like 5th or 6th on my list of things to do and get by next year lol.

[Corsair]

I actually have a confession to make. I dont like (hate) the Mayberry mod. You guys might be like "You dont know mods" or " Get out of the forum" but I mostly judge mods by the lighting and skins of cars. I dont care about map or texture much but I only judge mods by those 2 things. I mean most people do judge mods by stuff like that. Thats why I dont play mods based off of the Mayberry mod. The lights are like circles and not squares or rectangle but thats the only reason why I dont play it. Even if I install it I wont even play it LOL

I just have one question. If someone says they want to help you on your private mod and you give it to them, is that considered distributing without permission even if they really do help?

[Pottyscotty]

I just have one question. If someone says they want to help you on your private mod and you give it to them, is that considered distributing without permission even if they really do help?

That's a tricky one and you'd probably just have to ask the original Author/s.

[TheAxeMan33]

I actually have a confession to make. I dont like (hate) the Mayberry mod. You guys might be like "You dont know mods" or " Get out of the forum" but I mostly judge mods by the lighting and skins of cars. I dont care about map or texture much but I only judge mods by those 2 things. I mean most people do judge mods by stuff like that. Thats why I dont play mods based off of the Mayberry mod. The lights are like circles and not squares or rectangle but thats the only reason why I dont play it. Even if I install it I wont even play it LOL

I just have one question. If someone says they want to help you on your private mod and you give it to them, is that considered distributing without permission even if they really do help?

  

That's a tricky one and you'd probably just have to ask the original Author/s.

The response Pottyscotty gave you is quite correct, and I do agree with this forum topic all the way, calling a reskin a "modification" is byfar discrediting to the actual original creators, aswell a disrespect to the creators abilities/original work. They're basically going, "Released by modification come get a copy" and really not crediting the actual creators. I understand people crediting themselfs for reskins, as they do deserve that if they did a nice job, but atleast give the original creators a little more credit by calling it a SubMod or such.

[BeastyBill88]

Just to add to this.

 

Reskins aren't going to kill this community off as most people seem to think, it's reusing the same mod (in this case the Mayberry one) over and over with different skins and no new features which will do it. But I do agree with what you guys have said, a reskin is not brand new mod, it is just new textures and should be called a submod to which ever one it used as a base.

 

Also Corsair, polygons aren't always the best. Especially when you don't have a very good computer as they tend to cause alot of lag when there are several vehicles on scene. If I remember correctly the guy who made the Mayberry mod made it like that because he had a crap computer at the time so he couldn't make it super realistic and 200+ lights on every vehicle. As I've said to others, if you don't like something a mod creator has done don't snub it because of a few bits you don't agree with... Just change bits to how you want/like them, that is what I've done on a few mods I play.

[MikeyPI]

Just to add to this.

 

Reskins aren't going to kill this community off as most people seem to think, it's reusing the same mod (in this case the Mayberry one) over and over with different skins and no new features which will do it. But I do agree with what you guys have said, a reskin is not brand new mod, it is just new textures and should be called a submod to which ever one it used as a base.

 

Also Corsair, polygons aren't always the best. Especially when you don't have a very good computer as they tend to cause alot of lag when there are several vehicles on scene. If I remember correctly the guy who made the Mayberry mod made it like that because he had a crap computer at the time so he couldn't make it super realistic and 200+ lights on every vehicle. As I've said to others, if you don't like something a mod creator has done don't snub it because of a few bits you don't agree with... Just change bits to how you want/like them, that is what I've done on a few mods I play.

I don't believe most (there are a few out there who do) think reskins are going to kill the community.  I do believe that selling them as full-blown modifications is a bit misleading though and tend to agree with others that have stated that it doesnt give the credit due to the original authors of the stuff.  You have to learn somewhere, and for most people (even the advanced ones) they started out doing similar things and evolved their skills.  That is ultimately what will kill the community, if people are just contented to keep re-using the same stuff over and over again it will eventually get worn out and dull, no matter how you repaint or re-light it.  People have to try to evolve and learn more advanced skills to replace older more advanced modders as they move on (in any community they always do eventually outgrow doing it, this one is no different).  Without advanced people to replace the ones that move on, it will be nothing but the same old same over and over and that will make the community stale. Mashing up pieces of the existing mods will eventually get old too, no different than using the same core mod over again, you can only take the pieces so many times and mash them together before they'll get worn out too.  

 

So imo to keep things fresh it will require people to evolve beyond just mash-ups and reskins, but that is up to those people to try to evolve to that point.  Starting on the reskins and mash-ups is where most people start out in modding, so I can't say that I feel it's wrong.  But to claim that mashing or reskins is the same as the original guys who did the work you're using as a base is in my view taking a bit more credit for the time/effort than really is involved.  To me, those type of mods are sub-mods off the original content.  Hopefully more people will work towards advancing their skills, rather than staying at the same skill levels, most are not going to excel at all the required skills for a full-blown mod, but that doesnt mean you can't start trying to do your own content in the form of new scripts or model works.

 

Polygonal lighting and excessive coronas does lead to performance problems, even on high-powered computers, which is why some mods don't make excessive use of them.  If it were just one model visible at a time in this game it wouldnt cause a problem, but because there can be 10+ units on scene at a time it kind of has to be weighed into it when lighting stuff.  One single model overlit doesnt wipe out performance (for most machines) but when you multiply them it starts to bog the engine of this game, regardless of your computer specs it ultimately boils down to the engine the game uses, which was not intended to support excessive "realistic" lighting.  Play much older games than this one and you'll notice the same problems, esp. if the game you run has performance problems built-in from the original devs, the game will still bog or bleed memory and eventually crash.  EM4 is one of those games that has the optimization problems and a bleed, so no matter how powerful the machine, eventually it still will bog it's self down regardless of what we do, mods do have the ability to speed up that flaw though and cause the crashes sooner.

[itchboy]

I dont think reskin mods will kill off the community. Fact is, everyone has to start somewhere. I'll be honest and say that my first Em4 mod was a lame attempt at reskinning the LA mod units into the local units in my area. That mod has since been lost to the times, but I understand the beginners need to have a basis and a trail to go on. I too believe, it is the constant rehashing of the same old dead beaten horse that will do it in IMO. More importantly, this dead horse is labelled as being alive and well, so to speak. Remember that the only thing worse than beating a dead horse is betting on it.

 

It is kinda misleading for me when I see *name of mod here* and its basically just Mayberry with some textures swapped out and one or two units changed at the stations. I also find it partly offensive that the community at large considers these rehashes to be full mods by themselves, when in reality, they rely on Mayberry, which in turn relies on a mix of LA Mod, Brooklyn mod and some clan made scripts. Later versions of said mods also make use of my Montana mod volunteer FF script, although they were not able to implement it fully and some glitches occur. The retexture submods only exacerbate the existing problems the original mod had by often adding high poly, overlighted vehicles that further reduce performance and FPS of the game on weaker systems.

 

The problem lies in the fact that it seems as a community, save for a few people, we are stuck in making the same stuff over and over again. How tired are you people of seeing an EMS Ford Expedition, Ford Expedition Fire Chief, Pierce Arrow Tanker and a Ford F350 skid unit? I'm sure more than a few of you know what those vehicles look like, because they have been burned into their minds. NNico's F350 and bama's Topkick ambulance are also another pair ofold classics that I cant get out of mind, and I'm sure the community cant either.

 

We need to move forward from using the same stuff over and over again and actually try to learn the skills needed to create all new content. The reason no new content is popping up from those who do know how to create new content is because we dont see the demand for new stuff, nor do we have the security over our hard labored content.

 

To me, the real beef is that the mods with real originality hide in the shadows and their authors get called as being "evil, childish, *insert negative adjective here* while the reskin submods get all the praise and 25 minute YouTube gameplay videos. Secondly, these submod makers get the same, if not more credit as someone who makes a scratch model or skin.

 

If reskins can get as much recognition, respect, honor and praise as these....

shamelss self-plug

....then there is no incentive to make them this good. Its very disappointing when I put hours into making these units as close to the real thing as possible,but then I'm branded as selfish and whatever excrement people have been flinging in my direction. It also feels disheartening when a 20 minute reskin job gets more recognition than a full model which took hours of trial and error to achieve. Problem is that people are content with the common denominator of mods. If it barely resembles an American theme, its good to go. Thats pretty much it really. There doesnt seem to be much in the form of actual critique and the people just blindly take what they find. Another common denominator is the guise of "realism". Its a word that I believe has been bastardized to the point that having a button to start the engine of a vehicle is considered realism, but the fact that the unit made in Em4 is far from the actual real life unit is outright ignored.

 

One more thing in this discussion is the lack of any non fiction mods out there. A vast majority of the mods are fictional and for one reason only. Because very few are willing to take the time to replicate an actual unit down to the specifics. Its a product of laziness and something which further stagnates the quality of things being pumped out. But I do not necessarily mean EmP is now coming up with bad things. Not at all, there are actually quite a number of promising and interesting mods that I would like to see released due to their originality and the determination, perseverance, good attitude and morals of the author.

 

As far as I can see, and as I've posted above, its become a competition to see who can make something with the lowest common denominator and show it off with the best PR as possible with their fancy FB pages and clan sites. Not to mention their oh-so-many YouTube videos. I mean, does a mod really need all of that? I could understand filming a video yourself and uploading it, but sending copies to multitudes of people is just furthering the attitude that copyright and ownership does not exist in any form, when in reality it actually does.

[Pottyscotty]

*Post*

Very interesting read, definitely agree.

 

I have made a few EM4 models from scratch myself and I am more proud of them then any units I have downloaded and added a skin/lightbar etc to. These take hours of work so it would definitely be upsetting to see these get tossed away and ignored.

 

Detail is something I thrive on, I love it. Although this isn't very evident in my public mod, for a private one I have been working on (Perhaps public sometime in the future) I have been spending two, three times the time I normally would on a vehicle to get it as realistic as possible. I would be overjoyed to see a wider range of modifications use more detail. The problem I think is that a lot of the re-skins etc use older mods as a base and therefore the models are a little... Outdated... to what we see in some original modifications now.

 

I never got the "Private mod which shall be released to 6 Youtubers and a few Friends" thing either - If it's a private mod then why isn't it being kept that way?

 

-------------------------------

 

private

adjective

 

1. 1.

   belonging to or for the use of one particular person or group of people only.

[TheAxeMan33]

 

Very interesting read, definitely agree.

 

I have made a few EM4 models from scratch myself and I am more proud of them then any units I have downloaded and added a skin/lightbar etc to. These take hours of work so it would definitely be upsetting to see these get tossed away and ignored.

 

Detail is something I thrive on, I love it. Although this isn't very evident in my public mod, for a private one I have been working on (Perhaps public sometime in the future) I have been spending two, three times the time I normally would on a vehicle to get it as realistic as possible. I would be overjoyed to see a wider range of modifications use more detail. The problem I think is that a lot of the re-skins etc use older mods as a base and therefore the models are a little... Outdated... to what we see in some original modifications now.

 

I never got the "Private mod which shall be released to 6 Youtubers and a few Friends" thing either - If it's a private mod then why isn't it being kept that way?

 

-------------------------------

 

private

adjective

 

1. 1.

   belonging to or for the use of one particular person or group of people only.
2.  

 

You just kind of bit yourself in the behind, "belonging to or for the use of one particular person or group of people only".

 

but I do understand and agree with you where you were trying to go.

[itchboy]

You just kind of bit yourself in the behind, "belonging to or for the use of one particular person or group of people only".

 

but I do understand and agree with you where you were trying to go.

Well technically, most mods arent made by a single person, but by a group of people, usually with each of the skillsets needed (modeller, texture maker, etc) I don't see whats wrong with the statement.

[EM4life]

Make mods, not war.

 

 

(Now that we all know I'm an agreeable, level headed, sensible, individual, I get to be admin, yes?)

 

((That's how it works, right?))

 

(((Right?)))

[itchboy]

Make mods, not war.

 

 

(Now that we all know I'm an agreeable, level headed, sensible, individual, I get to be admin, yes?)

 

((That's how it works, right?))

 

(((Right?)))

Eh, there will be war as long as mods are made. Thats the root of the problem. I get that your post is sarcastic and humorous but the problem isn't black and white. Replying to it in a joking manner does lighten the tension but doesnt make the problem go away.

 

I suggest that mod segregation of some sort be done for the site. (how racist of me!)

[BeastyBill88]

Eh, there will be war as long as mods are made. Thats the root of the problem. I get that your post is sarcastic and humorous but the problem isn't black and white. Replying to it in a joking manner does lighten the tension but doesnt make the problem go away.

I suggest that mod segregation of some sort be done for the site. (how racist of me!)

So would that mean some mods have to move to the back of the forums? Lol.

[itchboy]

So would that mean some mods have to move to the back of the forums? Lol.

Naah, I'd just have it as "mods" or "submods", but thats racist and discriminatory apparently.

[BeastyBill88]

Naah, I'd just have it as "mods" or "submods", but thats racist and discriminatory apparently.

Racist and discrimination... But, but the LA mod has a section for submods... Why not others? I see no problem with doing it like that. I suppose it would help stopping submods being sold as new full mods.

[itchboy]

Racist and discrimination... But, but the LA mod has a section for submods... Why not others? I see no problem with doing it like that. I suppose it would help stopping submods being sold as new full mods.

It all comes down to what the moderators and administrators deem to be appropriate for the situation. I am just providing my opinion on it. If they take a different route, then its what it is. If they choose to categorize, thats it as well.

 

No matter what is done, there will be backlash and there will be a excrement thrown at both sides of the argument.