Why we play; why we mod.

[starbuster.x17]

After quite some time I can easily see that the community has turned against itself, when it was supposed to be us against the world. Backstabbing, accusations, pointless arguments, and so much more have started to truly tear apart a once so happy, and passionate group. I've noticed a lot of harsh selfishness as well, with people nitpicking to get all their wanted "credit", some only giving things as parts of equal trades; it is very ridiculous, and needs to end. We are all, or are likely all, gamers. We can upon this forum in search for fellow gamers with similar interests, and the same passion we have. We didn't join this forum to experience what a horrid, and dysfunctional family feels like, as some may already be in that boat. Instesd we came for the good parts of a family: Shared values, shared interests, and most importantly, shared passion. And passion, that's a word I've thrown in a lot, and that is due to its crucial importance to this forum. We all, or mostly all, have a passionate interest in the world's emergency services, no? In that case, why should we fight? For example, someone creates a dodge charger model for their mod. The mod is released, and another modder uses that same model for their mod, and they forget, or maybe just don't bother to credit the original creater. The creater then, say, revokes their mod release due to this, because it is "their model", or "their" car. Let me spell this out in the simplest way I can; the car is not yours. The model, it isn't yours. It is dodges model, it is dodge's car. You didn't design the vehicle from scratch, spend hours on end creating a new concept car. What you did, was exactly what you were angry about: lack of credit for another's work. If it was truly all that important to people, you'd be crediting chevrolet, and lambo, and BMW, and so on. The fact that you don't proves that it doesn't really matter to you, it's just selfishness. The reason this community is failing is the fact that we've forgotten what is important to it. Not backstabbing, just so someone can get their way. Not punishing, because someone didn't put a creators name on everything. A passion for the topic, of which this forum stands upon.

I write this, not for personal gain, or an attempt to persuade. I'd like this to just help be a guidance to a friendlier forum, with the same passion that started it off.

- ~D.~

P.S. Here's the video that inspired me to finally write this. It's an example of what a growing, or already established community needs. He addresses it nicely at the beginning, and the end.

https://youtu.be/eOb-2nHgJao

[MikeyPI]

Shared values, shared interests, and most importantly, shared passion.

 

For example, someone creates a dodge charger model for their mod. The mod is released, and another modder uses that same model for their mod, and they forget, or maybe just don't bother to credit the original creater.

 

The creater then, say, revokes their mod release due to this, because it is "their model", or "their" car. Let me spell this out in the simplest way I can; the car is not yours. The model, it isn't yours. It is dodges model, it is dodge's car. You didn't design the vehicle from scratch, spend hours on end creating a new concept car. What you did, was exactly what you were angry about: lack of credit for another's work. If it was truly all that important to people, you'd be crediting chevrolet, and lambo, and BMW, and so on. The fact that you don't proves that it doesn't really matter to you, it's just selfishness.

The reason this community is failing is the fact that we've forgotten what is important to it. Not backstabbing, just so someone can get their way. Not punishing, because someone didn't put a creators name on everything. A passion for the topic, of which this forum stands upon.

I write this, not for personal gain, or an attempt to persuade. I'd like this to just help be a guidance to a friendlier forum, with the same passion that started it off.

- ~D.~

I just shortened your post to the parts I wanted to respond to, for the most part I have no issues with your comments but these portions I have to speak on.

 

Shared values: Sadly, for quite some time, it seems, most people do not share the same values, values for some are more flexible than others... Within my time here, many times I have had to take a hiatus due to real-world issues, thus making me be unable to view the forums for long stretches of time, I have seen the changes from a different perspective, because I saw these changes with large "gaps" between the time instead of slowly, methodically watching them shift.  And from my perspective in viewing it in this manner, the "community" as a whole has changed in it's core of how it works.  In some ways to the benefit of it, in some to the detriment of it.

 

The forgetting is easy to credit is an easy fix, and with how most people work today, quite common.  The problem to me is those who cannot be bothered.  That is quite wrong to take advantage of the work of others to your benefit and disregard their time.  Shows a lack of appreciation for their time, and most importantly energy, time that you did not have to invest because they did so themselves.

 

The creator's can do what they wish to do (even if I do not always agree with their choices), love it or leave it, it is not quite the same. I kinda get tired of explaining it, the original designers own the rights to the likeness, but no different than any other artistic work, be it a painting, clay model (sculpture) or drawing, the author of said drawing does have rights in the format of intellectual property protections.  While the artist does not own the original content, they own the artistic representation of it, such as the electronic model they create.  To fail to differentiate the two shows a lack of understanding in this regard. I do not take a chevrolet for example, and conceal the bowtie emblem, the vehicle name or brand when I design them, thus I am not omitting the credit of the original designers. An example of what you speak of would be for example, GTA where they replicate the likeness of the original content, but alter them just enough to claim they are not replicas, or a Chinese corporation replicating a ford F series and changing the emblem/name.  That is what you describe, not what happens in creating a replica model, there is a big difference between the two.

 

To minimize my time and my effort, is frankly offensive, truth is I can take my very same works I offer for free to this community, and place them on a site which sells 3D models and profit from them instead of providing them free to this community.  When people choose to try to minimize my time invested and my perspective, it frankly gives me little incentive to wish to continue to provide my free time to this hobby, since it quite clearly when such statements are made is not appreciated.  The passion to make things is what I enjoy, being put in a position to have to defend my feelings since I, myself invest that time is the part I do not enjoy.  If someone takes the time to make these things, they too would understand the time invested and would understand why you would want recognition of that time too.  Especially when taken into context of the fact many do this aspect of this hobby for-profit instead of providing it to free. (see Flight Simulator/Train Simulator/amongst others)... Those people get their "appreciation" in the form of a paycheck, yet wanting recognition somehow makes me the problem, that I honestly don't get.

 

Backstabbing is a problem, when people intentionally screw one another over, it again points to the lack of shared "values" you referenced earlier, it's a shame but it does happen.  Usually for exactly what you said, to get their way.

Punishment is how people is kept in line, do I feel some people take it to extremes? Yes, they do, but sometimes people refuse to be reasonable with one another, that cuts both ways from the offender and the victims.. Someone has to mediate those situations, and sometimes that requires punishment.  If you want a "wild west" feel, this community was never that way, nor would it function if it was, it would in fact "fail" as you've claimed it is.

 

This community was much different in the past than it is now, it will never be what it was in the past. That is a fact of life, as time goes on things change, people change, but if people want to be friendlier they must learn to understand one another.  If you don't understand the other side of an argument, you can never appreciate their feelings, nor can you actually mediate the issue out.  If you look at it from a single perspective, you will always be firmly stuck to your "side" and will never be willing to compromise. Compromise and respect, is what ultimately leads to a "friendlier" more helpful forum.

[starbuster.x17]

I just shortened your post to the parts I wanted to respond to, for the most part I have no issues with your comments but these portions I have to speak on.

Shared values: Sadly, for quite some time, it seems, most people do not share the same values, values for some are more flexible than others... Within my time here, many times I have had to take a hiatus due to real-world issues, thus making me be unable to view the forums for long stretches of time, I have seen the changes from a different perspective, because I saw these changes with large "gaps" between the time instead of slowly, methodically watching them shift. And from my perspective in viewing it in this manner, the "community" as a whole has changed in it's core of how it works. In some ways to the benefit of it, in some to the detriment of it.

The forgetting is easy to credit is an easy fix, and with how most people work today, quite common. The problem to me is those who cannot be bothered. That is quite wrong to take advantage of the work of others to your benefit and disregard their time. Shows a lack of appreciation for their time, and most importantly energy, time that you did not have to invest because they did so themselves.

The creator's can do what they wish to do (even if I do not always agree with their choices), love it or leave it, it is not quite the same. I kinda get tired of explaining it, the original designers own the rights to the likeness, but no different than any other artistic work, be it a painting, clay model (sculpture) or drawing, the author of said drawing does have rights in the format of intellectual property protections. While the artist does not own the original content, they own the artistic representation of it, such as the electronic model they create. To fail to differentiate the two shows a lack of understanding in this regard. I do not take a chevrolet for example, and conceal the bowtie emblem, the vehicle name or brand when I design them, thus I am not omitting the credit of the original designers. An example of what you speak of would be for example, GTA where they replicate the likeness of the original content, but alter them just enough to claim they are not replicas, or a Chinese corporation replicating a ford F series and changing the emblem/name. That is what you describe, not what happens in creating a replica model, there is a big difference between the two.

To minimize my time and my effort, is frankly offensive, truth is I can take my very same works I offer for free to this community, and place them on a site which sells 3D models and profit from them instead of providing them free to this community. When people choose to try to minimize my time invested and my perspective, it frankly gives me little incentive to wish to continue to provide my free time to this hobby, since it quite clearly when such statements are made is not appreciated. The passion to make things is what I enjoy, being put in a position to have to defend my feelings since I, myself invest that time is the part I do not enjoy. If someone takes the time to make these things, they too would understand the time invested and would understand why you would want recognition of that time too. Especially when taken into context of the fact many do this aspect of this hobby for-profit instead of providing it to free. (see Flight Simulator/Train Simulator/amongst others)... Those people get their "appreciation" in the form of a paycheck, yet wanting recognition somehow makes me the problem, that I honestly don't get.

Backstabbing is a problem, when people intentionally screw one another over, it again points to the lack of shared "values" you referenced earlier, it's a shame but it does happen. Usually for exactly what you said, to get their way.

Punishment is how people is kept in line, do I feel some people take it to extremes? Yes, they do, but sometimes people refuse to be reasonable with one another, that cuts both ways from the offender and the victims.. Someone has to mediate those situations, and sometimes that requires punishment. If you want a "wild west" feel, this community was never that way, nor would it function if it was, it would in fact "fail" as you've claimed it is.

This community was much different in the past than it is now, it will never be what it was in the past. That is a fact of life, as time goes on things change, people change, but if people want to be friendlier they must learn to understand one another. If you don't understand the other side of an argument, you can never appreciate their feelings, nor can you actually mediate the issue out. If you look at it from a single perspective, you will always be firmly stuck to your "side" and will never be willing to compromise. Compromise and respect, is what ultimately leads to a "friendlier" more helpful forum.

Thanks a lot for the correction and feedback. I can see some of the illogical parts I put in there.

Anyway, I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my pretty pointless rant. I will definitely take everything you said into consideration.

Thanks again

- ~D.~

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

[MikeyPI]

Your intentions were not pointless, your intent was to share your perspective and what you view going on in the community, and ultimately what you feel would help improve it.  That is not pointless by any stretch of the imagination.  Truth of the matter it is quite valuable to express your views in a respectful manner.  Had you just been "trolling" in your statement, it would be different, but you were expressing your opinion.  I responded to the portions that I see from a different perspective, and you're willing to consider it.  I share some of your sentiments, but these areas were where we don't quite see it the same are what I commented on.  The fact you're willing to see my perspective speaks to your character, that isnt pointless either.

 

I appreciate your intentions, I just wished to respond to the points that I did, I believe somewhere between the extreme of "mine! nobody touch" and "do whatever" is where we should be as a community, but that isnt for me as an individual to make that choice.  The passion to want to do this involves recognition, be it a reskinner, a modeler, a scripter, a lighter, everyone does this and is "paid" in the form of recognition, when that recognition is denied it offends the people who do the work (realistically, since I do it myself I understand why).  The alternative would be to move onto other things, or to go for-profit instead similar to FSX or TS and similar games, and honestly that would be horrible for the community, and something I myself don't want to see happen.  

 

Take care, as I said earlier you have good intentions, I just wanted to share my perspective being one of the people who come from a different view, there is nothing wrong with sharing your views with others as long as the discussion can take place civilly.

[itchboy]

Thank you so much for being civil about this discussion and not just calling people such as myself and the moderators "evil", "greedy" and other negative adjectives.

 

Short fast and loud: The vehicles we are recreating are not ours, but the very existence of the model and the labor and time put into it belongs to the author. MikeyPI's explanation says it best and I wish more people would know and understand the validity of what he says instead of labelling him as some kind of devil or something (regardless of the Kitler status above his profile pic)

 

I respect your opinions and the ones of Jeff although I dont agree with some points. The GTA community has always locked their models due to a high number of model thefts. Authors do not like their things getting stolen from them. How about if I stole your car and then claimed it was mine? Wouldn't you be angry? People wouldnt be locking their models if people wouldnt be stealing them. In the same way, the content creators here would be more open if the community wouldnt just rip their content apart upon release. Its all cause and effect really.

 

In context to Em4, authors like me are fed up at the apathy and attitude that is prevelant in this community and beyond, that what is there is free for all. No form of respect or acknowledgement to the time and effort spent by authors to create beautiful things.

 

Another issue is the stagnation of contnent. Content here is stagnating because authors are apprehensive to release their content due to the high risk of their things being stolen or ripped.

 

I personally removed all of my downloads becuase I believe that all they did was exacerbate the existing problem that nobody is willing to learn the necessary or even basic modding skills required to mod Em4, and would rather have everything handed to them in a silver platter.

 

People here do not share the same values at all. As a community, we're pretty divided actually. There are those who just want mods regardless of quality. Others still who are choosy with their mods and expect a certain standard for them. Then there are the mod authors who meticolously recreate every detail of the vehicle/object/building/person they are intending to create.

 

With that last statement, the point has been missed, that this game is a hobby, and what people like I do is an art form.

*insert shameless self promotion here*

Its no different really than woodworking, or painting, or building guitars. The difference though is that for this specific community, things have gone from comparing each other's work and enjoying what they have, into a complete pissing contest so to speak.

 

We got clans left and right vying for the talented members to join their ranks. Modding teams going all out to out do each other. As soon as these trends began, the shared values the community once had were erased permanently. Whats left now is "my **** is much bigger than yours"

 

The recent splintering of the community is the result of several members attempting to persuade their followers that the basic rules of this site are too extreme for them and that they would like to have another place to congregate. Well they do, but due to the character of these people, the only content they are producing are reskins of a reskin mod of the LA Mod. Pretty much that and nothing else.

 

I personally do not have any issue with accidental lack of credits. It is those who are adamant and disobedient that I have a disdain for, and especially the backstabbers, as stated by MikeyPI.

 

The one point that Jeff made that I disagree on is that, yes, too much restrictions will kill the community. But having no rules and letting it be a free-for-all would end the community just as quickly, if not, even faster than having too much restrictions.

 

In this argument, both sides have committed wrongdoings, the difference though is that for the content creators to fix their mistakes, all they need to do is provide basic easy to use content and clear instructions onto how they are used. The opposing side though is a completely different story.

 

Those people need to check themselves and their entitilement issues. A mod isn't a right, its a culmination of months or years of hard on and off work and that nobody regardless of status or usefulness deserves mods. Mods will come when they come.

 

The only real thing that can be done to save the community is that an ultimatum be reached by the majority - that they respect author's credits, wishes, and efforts. The majority also need to learn the value of patience, and that mods dont just drop out of the sky. They also need to learn that the reason that no fresh talent is entering the community is becuase many of us are apprehensive to release something to a hostile, vitriolic crowd.

 

This is just my opinion on it and I am not attempting to stifle the opposing opinions, or to argue with them. I am posting this so I can share my viewpoint on what has occured over the last 12 months here.

[starbuster.x17]

Thank you so much for being civil about this discussion and not just calling people such as myself and the moderators "evil", "greedy" and other negative adjectives.

Short fast and loud: The vehicles we are recreating are not ours, but the very existence of the model and the labor and time put into it belongs to the author. MikeyPI's explanation says it best and I wish more people would know and understand the validity of what he says instead of labelling him as some kind of devil or something (regardless of the Kitler status above his profile pic)

I respect your opinions and the ones of Jeff although I dont agree with some points. The GTA community has always locked their models due to a high number of model thefts. Authors do not like their things getting stolen from them. How about if I stole your car and then claimed it was mine? Wouldn't you be angry? People wouldnt be locking their models if people wouldnt be stealing them. In the same way, the content creators here would be more open if the community wouldnt just rip their content apart upon release. Its all cause and effect really.

In context to Em4, authors like me are fed up at the apathy and attitude that is prevelant in this community and beyond, that what is there is free for all. No form of respect or acknowledgement to the time and effort spent by authors to create beautiful things.

Another issue is the stagnation of contnent. Content here is stagnating because authors are apprehensive to release their content due to the high risk of their things being stolen or ripped.

I personally removed all of my downloads becuase I believe that all they did was exacerbate the existing problem that nobody is willing to learn the necessary or even basic modding skills required to mod Em4, and would rather have everything handed to them in a silver platter.

People here do not share the same values at all. As a community, we're pretty divided actually. There are those who just want mods regardless of quality. Others still who are choosy with their mods and expect a certain standard for them. Then there are the mod authors who meticolously recreate every detail of the vehicle/object/building/person they are intending to create.

With that last statement, the point has been missed, that this game is a hobby, and what people like I do is an art form.

*insert shameless self promotion here*

Its no different really than woodworking, or painting, or building guitars. The difference though is that for this specific community, things have gone from comparing each other's work and enjoying what they have, into a complete pissing contest so to speak.

We got clans left and right vying for the talented members to join their ranks. Modding teams going all out to out do each other. As soon as these trends began, the shared values the community once had were erased permanently. Whats left now is "my **** is much bigger than yours"

The recent splintering of the community is the result of several members attempting to persuade their followers that the basic rules of this site are too extreme for them and that they would like to have another place to congregate. Well they do, but due to the character of these people, the only content they are producing are reskins of a reskin mod of the LA Mod. Pretty much that and nothing else.

I personally do not have any issue with accidental lack of credits. It is those who are adamant and disobedient that I have a disdain for, and especially the backstabbers, as stated by MikeyPI.

The one point that Jeff made that I disagree on is that, yes, too much restrictions will kill the community. But having no rules and letting it be a free-for-all would end the community just as quickly, if not, even faster than having too much restrictions.

In this argument, both sides have committed wrongdoings, the difference though is that for the content creators to fix their mistakes, all they need to do is provide basic easy to use content and clear instructions onto how they are used. The opposing side though is a completely different story.

Those people need to check themselves and their entitilement issues. A mod isn't a right, its a culmination of months or years of hard on and off work and that nobody regardless of status or usefulness deserves mods. Mods will come when they come.

The only real thing that can be done to save the community is that an ultimatum be reached by the majority - that they respect author's credits, wishes, and efforts. The majority also need to learn the value of patience, and that mods dont just drop out of the sky. They also need to learn that the reason that no fresh talent is entering the community is becuase many of us are apprehensive to release something to a hostile, vitriolic crowd.

This is just my opinion on it and I am not attempting to stifle the opposing opinions, or to argue with them. I am posting this so I can share my viewpoint on what has occured over the last 12 months here.

Again, thank you for your time taken to respond to my rant, I really do appreciate it. I very much agree with you, however, I can't make the same connections, as I don't mod, but I know the feeling of having something hard-worked for taken.

As a side note, I am quite of your content, and I'm glad I had gotten my hands on it before you took the downloads down.

Thanks a lot.

- ~D.~

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

[itchboy]

Again, thank you for your time taken to respond to my rant, I really do appreciate it. I very much agree with you, however, I can't make the same connections, as I don't mod, but I know the feeling of having something hard-worked for taken.

As a side note, I am quite of your content, and I'm glad I had gotten my hands on it before you took the downloads down.

Thanks a lot.

- ~D.~

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

You are quite what of my content? I think you are missing a word there. Thats fine though, and its good that you appreciate what I do.

[starbuster.x17]

You are quite what of my content? I think you are missing a word there. Thats fine though, and its good that you appreciate what I do.

Fond. Trying to game and type at once. my bad.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk