This is deep stuff....

[met police999]

No the only police services currently armed are the Ministry of Defence police (Basically military police),Civil Nuclear Constabulary(Nuclear power stations) and the Police Service of Northern Ireland however the PSNI are slowly unarming officers (they are armed due to the threats of the IRA etc)

[randomperson139]

And the armed response units in each police force...

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[MikeyPI]

Yeah uhm, they've had policia cars broken into and weapons stolen.. The whole "lock" mechanisms are a deterrent but that does not mean it's impossible to jack a gun from a trunk.  

[Hoppah]

**BE ADVISED, GRAPHIC VIDEO ONCE AGAIN.* 

Respect to those police officers who have to deal with that. However, it does kinda shows how defenseless unarmed police officers actually are. The ones in the video are panicking (especially the one calling it in) and to me it just looks like they weren't trained to deal with a situation like this. Why the hell wasn't the suspect restrained before they put him in the police vehicle? Even before they found the drugs, one of the officers thought that 'something wasn't right'. Anyway, those police officers basically relied on backup once it escalated . Even funnier, you would expect that bystanders would provide help, especially if nobody apparently owns guns in the UK.

 

story

I like what you said and I nearly tend to agree. However it does raise questions. Especially regarding this:

"If the same incident was to happen in the UK, almost exactly the same response would have happened but with unarmed and then armed officers as they arrived. This was a murder that turned into a barricaded-suspect situation, he set fire to the house and one could suppose he was trying to start a victim-precipitated suicide by cop by engaging the police. One could argue that the deterrent of armed officers prevented him from fleeing the scene but that seems unlikely."

I'm aware the suspect in the video in the first post probably had no intentions to flee. Just like most shootings, maintaining a perimeter is usually the main objective to prevent escalation. But how they hell can you safely maintain a fully secured perimeter with unarmed police officers if you're facing armed suspects? You cannot imo. Alot can happen between the call for armed backup (by police) until arrival of said armed backup. With the knowledge of facing unarmed police officers for at least 10 minutes, I'd take my chances if I was a suspect with a gun and I wanted to live free.

Anyway, its an interesting subject to talk about. I'm sure the whole unarmed police policy works fine in the UK, but I'm just constantly wondering if they're really willing to take those extra risks, which may result in deaths which could've been prevented.

[SparkyTheGamer]

Respect to those police officers who have to deal with that. However, it does kinda shows how defenseless unarmed police officers actually are. The ones in the video are panicking (especially the one calling it in) and to me it just looks like they weren't trained to deal with a situation like this. Why the hell wasn't the suspect restrained before they put him the police vehicle? That's asking for an escalation/an attempt to run. Anyway, those police officers basically relied on backup once it escalated . Even funnier, you would expect that bystanders would provide help, especially if nobody apparently owns guns in the UK.

 

Anyway, its an interesting subject to talk about. I'm sure the whole unarmed police deal works fine in the UK, but I'm just constantly wondering if they're really willing to take those extra risks, which may result in deaths which could've been prevented

 

 

Bystanders in the United States rarely help either, I find it kinda poopy when they don't, even if they are just sitting there fighting the Officer - if I seen that I would jump in and push the suspect over and attempt to pin him to the ground and help the Officer, and you can clearly see in that video that the one officer was bleeding very badly, so they needed help. There was a person with a dog behind the incident, I would've thought that the dog would've gone mental .

 

I also agree with the deaths being  prevented, and I think it would be better if cops in England had some sort of sidearm, cuz' as they say in the video the suspect did have a key in his hand which was used to cause the injuries to the Officer that had a concussion and had to be transported. If that has happened in the United States a Officer's sidearm would have been drawn and they would've been yelling at the suspect to drop the key as it is a dangerous weapon and it could kill somebody. Here, if there is a danger to the public and/or an Officer's life, they draw their sidearms and will shoot at the suspect to injure them and make them drop said weapon. 

[randomperson139]

Even funnier, you would expect that bystanders would provide help, especially if nobody apparently owns guns in the UK.

You would expect help from bystanders, but this is something that doesn't happen in the UK unfortunately. It's exactly the same when it comes to EMS calls. The majority of the time in the UK, people will do nothing if someone where to say collapse in front of them. They would just carry on walking, or just stand there!

As to UK police being armed, it is something that has been debated many times in the past, and will be debated again and again. I think it always comes down to a question of is it necessary, when incidents involving firearms are fortunately rare. Yes, there have been deaths which may or may not have been avoided, but things like that do not happen very often at all.

And then there's the argument that arming police officers might lead to more criminals being armed and therefore more gun crime/ violent crimes.

Although, more and more police officers are being routinely issued tasers. I know they aren't much when it comes to an armed suspect, but it's a start!

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[SparkyTheGamer]

cuz' as they say in the video the suspect did have a key in his hand which was used to cause the injuries to the Officer that had a concussion and had to be transported. If that has happened in the United States a Officer's sidearm would have been drawn and they would've been yelling at the suspect to drop the key as it is a dangerous weapon and it could kill somebody. Here, if there is a danger to the public and/or an Officer's life, they draw their sidearms and will shoot at the suspect to injure them and make them drop said weapon. 

 

Like I said above, if this were to happen a sidearm would be drawn in the US and if the suspect proceeded to stab the officer in the face like that he would've been shot and he would've been detained. Police Officers are taught to shoot if they are being presented with a suspect with a weapon, I.E a knife being pulled on an officer or another weapon being pulled out, if that happens a PO has every right to shoot to injure. I think this is how it should be in England, but as you said, it is debated all the time.

[Hoppah]

As to UK police being armed, it is something that has been debated many times in the past, and will be debated again and again.

Indeed, it will always be debated, even if they ever issue guns to police officers in the UK. It remains a matter of weighing the pros and cons. The investment of issuing guns to officers to save extra lives, increase defensibility and to deal with certain situations more effectively versus the risks of innocent people getting shot, trigger happy officers or weapons being stolen and/or used against officers. The latter happened in the Netherlands in 2011, resulting in the death of a police officer who was killed with his own gun which was taken from him during a struggle. There's no perfect solution and there never will be. Tasers aren't that non-lethal as they are supposed to be and batons can be used to beat someone to death too. Even cuffs can be used against officers effectively. If the suspect is better than the officer, the officer will probably not win. No matter if guns are involved or not. :>

[SparkyTheGamer]

Indeed, it will always be debated, even if they ever issue guns to police officers in the UK. It remains a matter of weighing the pros and cons. The investment of issuing guns to officers to save extra lives, increase defensibility and to deal with certain situations more effectively versus the risks of innocent people getting shot, trigger happy officers or weapons being stolen and/or used against officers. The latter happened in the Netherlands in 2011, resulting in the death of a police officer who was killed with his own gun which was taken from him during a struggle. There's no perfect solution and there never will be. Even tasers aren't that non-lethal as they are supposed to be and batons can be used to beat someone to death too.

 

Well, don't they have the straps around the holster of their weapon? This way it is hard to unclip when you are tussling around with a Officer who is probably 10x stronger than you?

[MikeyPI]

I don't shot to injure that's a movie/TV thing... in reality you get to the point of firing a firearm you're going in it with the intent of neutralizing the subject, not just shooting them in the arm hoping they drop the weapon. Yes there are simple clasps that hold a firearm in the holster, it can be undone very quickly if someone knows how it snaps on... Someone with experience with a holster can get it done very fast/easy... Cops are not superman contrary to most people's belief, it is in strength of numbers that they tend to overwhelm a suspect, one on one a cop is just the same as the guy they are up against, it all comes down to the individual, and what they are willing to do to said officer.

[Hoppah]

Officer who is probably 10x stronger than you?

Then why could 2 officers BARELY restrain a suspect in that video?

It's horeshite. You'd cry in shame if you'd find out physical requirements to be a police officer. The officers in the vid you posted earlier for example: the skinnier one with the glasses didn't appear to look very strong. Other than holding on 'to dear life' to his cuffs, he didn't do anything. The other 'fattier' one appeared stronger but probably couldn't outrun the suspect if he'd got away. Even the suspect wasn't that build but he did a fairly good job on fighting them off. Otherwise the video wouldn't be that 'shocking' right? Then you have a lot of older police officers (50+ yo) too, who all have to deal with the effects of ageing. Most police officers aren't body builders at all. Because of their vest and belt they just usually appear heavy build and/or stronger in public.

And yes a gun holster usually has wraps. But that doesn't mean much if the suspect is still stronger than the officer and you're already engaged in hand-combat.

[SparkyTheGamer]

You'd cry in shame if you'd find out physical requirements to be a police officer.

 

I think there should be more strict requirements, like you have to be strong, can't be fat and eat donuts all the time (lawl). Theres one cop around where I live, everyone is scared of him cuz he is bulked up

[MikeyPI]

Some of the most intimidating people I've ever ran into are insanely small build, but the things they can do if need be is downright horrifying.. Size aint everything, its about knowing how to use your size and leverage.

[SparkyTheGamer]

Some of the most intimidating people I've ever ran into are insanely small build, but the things they can do if need be is downright horrifying.. Size aint everything, its about knowing how to use your size and leverage.

 

Yeh, the cop that I am talking about is muscular, and yanno' sometimes the more muscle you have - you may be stronger, but it is hard for you to move/run. 

[MikeyPI]

Sad reality is that more muscle usually doesnt lead to greater endurance, to feed those muscles takes more oxygen/energy.. Tis why you look at runners, swimmers, climbers, they tend to be wiry in build... The larger framed counterparts simply don't have the required endurance, yeah they'll relocate a car for ya nicely but it's a one and done type of deal.

[Miercolini]

This means that regardless to how fast/well armed the first response is, it will NOT engage the potential threat directly unless forced to anyway.. That is why incidents like columbine go on for so long.. Who is the subject in question?  What are they armed with? How many? Do they have hostages? Will we further endanger lives by moving in too fast without correct intel?  Did they set traps? Are there IEDs present?

 

Columbine could be considered the first of its kind, where the police took it as a hostage type situation. Alot has changed since then in police tactics such. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immediate_Action_Rapid_Deployment  Even my local county police has a emergency plan like this, if there was something happening at a school, the first two or three patrol cars would divide up into like two teams of two and make immediate entry. It doesn't always prevent the damage from occuring, but it defiantly stops sooner. It is also one reason why many places provide assault rifles to officers in patrol cars. In these cases, SWAT or ESU gets there after the fact. 

[MikeyPI]

Yeah uhm, no you have a protocol for a lone shooter situation, then you have one for a potential barricade/terrorist... Go in on a hostage situation or a terrorist group and you'll just add to the body count.  Trying to guess what the situation is, is the problem in these scenarios. Shots fired in a generally populated area does not mean rampaging gunman every time.  Columbine wasnt the only one, nor will it be the last.  The sad reality is you can't really stop those types of incidents, especially if the suspect is suicidal.

[Fred03]

I think the most successful recent intervention by LEOs in a situation like that was at the Navy Yard.

[MikeyPI]

Yeah their response time was pretty commendable, the ones I always worry about are the mall type environments because they are the worst situation to attempt to control.  Military/Gov buildings you generally have a pretty good chance of armed security forces roaming about them so the response times are pretty fast on scene for them. In the end I wish I could say there was a way to completely prevent them, but most of the people who do em are frankly suicidal anyway and want to be taken out in the incident anyway... Hard to prevent an incident if the subjects generally get their wish in the event.  Tis why bank robbing isnt a popular gig anymore, you get caught you're gna goto jail.. Shoot something up, you end up dead most the time.. To them that's a win.

[met police999]

I think what we have to remember it's hard arguing this as everyone else knows police to be armed and that to be of the norm but here not so much a gun wouldn't have changed the outcome of the video the officer only had one cuff on anyway (they also should have searched before hand anyway) and for the panicky officer well you would officers here don't see things like that

[theocd]

I dread to think what would have happened if one of the officers had been armed in the lovely tussle we saw in the most picturesque of English towns - Luton (lol). The officer lost hold of his CS Spray and couldn't get his TASER out of its pouch (interestingly both Sect. 5 Firearms in the UK) within the first few seconds and if you were, as Hoppah put it, the 'fattier', would you by trying to put a couple of shots into the suspect as he wrestles with your buddy, fingers crossed for that overpenetration? In a crowded street? What would the IPCC and the Media think of an officer gunning down a man armed with a motorbike key? They have enough trouble in this country when we shoot armed suspects! Had that been an ARV crew I doubt they would have drawn for the following reasons:

2. CIRCUMSTANCES WHEN WEAPONS MAY BE FIRED

2.1 Firearms may be fired by AFOs in the course of their duty only when absolutely necessary after traditional methods have been tried and failed or must, from the nature of the circumstances, be unlikely to succeed if tried.

2.4 The test of using ‘force which is no more than absolutely necessary’ as set out in Article 2 (2) of the European Convention on Human Rights, should be applied in relation to the operational discharge of any weapon.

 (ACPO Manual of Guidance on the Police Use of Firearms, 2003)

One assumes the talking, tussling and the attempt at TASER-ing were the attempts at traditional methods, and in the end, they worked, and nobody got shot.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with Hoppah, two officers were struggling to restrain one guy, I'm sure that happens in the US, Netherlands, Spain, Canada etc. too. I would just like to point out that glasses guy gets punched in the head by the patrol car and is rapidly losing consciousness throughout the fight, so its one and a half officers at best!

 

The OC-D

[SparkyTheGamer]

I dread to think what would have happened if one of the officers had been armed in the lovely tussle we saw in the most picturesque of English towns - Luton (lol). The officer lost hold of his CS Spray and couldn't get his TASER out of its pouch (interestingly both Sect. 5 Firearms in the UK) within the first few seconds and if you were, as Hoppah put it, the 'fattier', would you by trying to put a couple of shots into the suspect as he wrestles with your buddy, fingers crossed for that overpenetration? In a crowded street? What would the IPCC and the Media think of an officer gunning down a man armed with a motorbike key? They have enough trouble in this country when we shoot armed suspects! Had that been an ARV crew I doubt they would have drawn for the following reasons:

2. CIRCUMSTANCES WHEN WEAPONS MAY BE FIRED

2.1 Firearms may be fired by AFOs in the course of their duty only when absolutely necessary after traditional methods have been tried and failed or must, from the nature of the circumstances, be unlikely to succeed if tried.

2.4 The test of using ‘force which is no more than absolutely necessary’ as set out in Article 2 (2) of the European Convention on Human Rights, should be applied in relation to the operational discharge of any weapon.

 (ACPO Manual of Guidance on the Police Use of Firearms, 2003)

One assumes the talking, tussling and the attempt at TASER-ing were the attempts at traditional methods, and in the end, they worked, and nobody got shot.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with Hoppah, two officers were struggling to restrain one guy, I'm sure that happens in the US, Netherlands, Spain, Canada etc. too. I would just like to point out that glasses guy gets punched in the head by the patrol car and is rapidly losing consciousness throughout the fight, so its one and a half officers at best!

 

The OC-D

 

Completely different in the United States, lol. If they have a weapon they are either tased or shot, especially when they have a knife and you cannot get close to them with CS. I have no idea why, but I recently have gained A LOT of interest in the Law Enforcement in England, specifically the Roads Policing Unit. So, I am highly interested in finding anymore information on the police force, you think you have any links you can shoot me in a private message?

 

I also find this quite interesting (the first bit)...CO19, wow.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FPIVX6ybKA

[Wkboy714]

Regarding officer fitness in the UK, pretty much any average Joe can pass it. I've passed the test and didn't have to do any particular preparation or training for it, and I'm not exactly a bag of muscle. I think that officer safety and effectiveness, though, are much more reliant on correct defence and control techniques rather than brute force and weight. Also strength in numbers.

In terms of arming police...boy, it sure is complicated. As callous as it might sound, I think the idea of arming all police is never seriously considered here because of the massive infrastructure and training costs it'd require, which aren't feasibly affordable especially as the police forces are taking 20% budget cuts. There's weapon costs, a lot of training, upkeep, insurance, likely court cases from police shootings, and so on.

Another issue is that our unique policing system here in the UK is built heavily on trust and approachability. As theocd pointed out, when people feel that the police are no longer trustworthy, an "us and them" feel can easily develop which is actually one of the main factors of those massive nationwide riots we had a few years back. Those high up in police will be extremely careful to avoid a repeat of that.

PS Sparky - if there's anything specific you want to know, you can PM me I'll try to help

[SparkyTheGamer]

Another issue is that our unique policing system here in the UK is built heavily on trust and approachability. As theocd pointed out, when people feel that the police are no longer trustworthy, an "us and them" feel can easily develop which is actually one of the main factors of those massive nationwide riots we had a few years back. Those high up in police will be extremely careful to avoid a repeat of that.

PS Sparky - if there's anything specific you want to know, you can PM me I'll try to help

 

Yeh, I see in documentaries about british police, that no body likes you, lol. They try and make ya look bad to make you public enemy #1. 

[Handsup!]

MY point is watch the language please, you've used inappropriate language in this topic a few times, tis against the TOS round these parts.

 

I think if you want people to stop abusing the TOS, you should actually have one...

http://forum.emergency-planet.com/index.php?app=tos