SparkyTheGamer Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 This stuff has made me think how Police Officers are faced with danger while on duty - no matter where you live you are in immediate danger with the line of work you do....THIS VIDEO IS GRAPHIC AND CONTAINS REAL LIFE VICTIMS OF SHOOTINGS. SOME PEOPLE IN THIS VIDEO HAVE DIED. **BE ADVISED, GRAPHIC CONTENT ** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youdotoo Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 It is a worst case scenario for firefighters, emts, and police officer. This video just goes to show that you need to expect the unexpected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkyTheGamer Posted June 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 (edited) It is a worst case scenario for firefighter, emts, and police officer. This video just goes to show that you need to expect the unexpected. I feel bad for the Police Officers in other countries, such as England - you don't get a sidearm, so you are screwed if someone else has a handgun Edited June 4, 2014 by SparkyTheGreat Removed unhappy word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youdotoo Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 I would be very uncomfortable as a police officer without a gun. However, many countries don't give officers handguns. In my state, officers have Ar-15's in the trunk, shotguns in the well, shotgun seat, and pistols on the hips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkyTheGamer Posted June 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 Ye, where I live we have so many Law Enforcement Agencies near my city...we have the State Police, County Sheriff's Office and the Local Police Department....so I think we are pretty safe - just the other day I see an unmarked crown vic with a State Trooper in it speeding from here all the way across the county to a shots fired called with EMS/Fire on standby....so I think they are pretty dedicated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newfoundking Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 Note on weapons. Fire arms may be like ass holes in the US, that is everyone has one, but in places like England, firearms are much harder to get a hold of, so you're generally pretty safe without one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theocd Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 Yeah, lets not bring up the whole 'British police must be completely defenceless without a gun' discussion, it's a completely different culture that has a completely different style of policing.As for the video, very deep, very sad. The OC-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Handsup! Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 I feel bad for the Police Officers in other countries, such as England - you don't get a sidearm, so you are fucked if someone else has a handgun Like OC-D said, we don't need guns because we actually have some form of gun control. But this video is incredibly graphic, tragedy EDIT: Watched it properly, this is disgusting. R.I.P, f*** those assholes that did this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youdotoo Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 The guy that shot the cop is dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkyTheGamer Posted June 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 Like OC-D said, we don't need guns because we actually have some form of gun control. But this video is incredibly graphic, tragedy EDIT: Watched it properly, this is disgusting. R.I.P, f*** those assholes that did this. Well, my point is - what if someone DOES have a gun in the United Kingdom? What will the cops do? How long does it take for the Armed Response team to respond? And, the guy in the video ended up burning his house down so he is dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyPI Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 MY point is watch the language please, you've used inappropriate language in this topic a few times, tis against the TOS round these parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoppah Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 This video just goes to show that you need to expect the unexpected. Not really imo. Incidents like this (and far worse) can be fully expected under current US gun laws. *roll-eye. I have alot of respect for police officers, but their job comes with extra risks, especially in the US. It is what it is. Yeah, lets not bring up the whole 'British police must be completely defenceless without a gun' discussion, it's a completely different culture that has a completely different style of policing. As for the video, very deep, very sad. The OC-D Why not? UK policing culture may be different, but if (very unlikely though) the same incident happened in the UK, the suspect could've theoratically escaped easy before armed officers could respond. Without a gun there isn't so much you can do against a suspect with a rifle. I'm aware that shooting incidents are extremely rare in the UK due to their gun laws, but the whole debate regarding issueing handguns to police officers in the UK is kinda hilarious. Talking about expecting the unexpected, there is always a chance of a British 'Breivik' to happen. Debate will be over when that happens, because we aren't no longer talking about contained incidents. There will always be people with completely twisted minds like Breivik running around. You kinda rely on armed police to stop lone wolves like that as soon as possible. It's imo unacceptable they would have to wait an extra five minutes (probably longer) for a UK firearm unit to respond to a killing spree like that. But that's just me, it's imo worth the investment to issue handguns to all police officers to save innocent lives including those of police officers. Or are incidents like this (a murder of 2 UK police officers while on duty) considered acceptable losses in the UK? Because -unfortunately- thats what they basically are. The video is shocking, but other than the suspect (+ his daughter and his mother-in-law?), nobody died right? The officer who got shot survived, thank god. No offence, but there are far worse shooting incidents, like that Rodger kid who went on a killing spree a few weeks ago, because he couldn't get a girl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theocd Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Well, my point is - what if someone DOES have a gun in the United Kingdom? What will the cops do? How long does it take for the Armed Response team to respond? And, the guy in the video ended up burning his house down so he is dead. An Armed Response Vehicle can be anywhere from 10 minutes (London) to an hour and 10 minutes away(North Wales). Why not? UK policing culture may be different, but if (very unlikely though) the same incident happened in the UK, the suspect could've theoratically escaped easy before armed officers could respond. Without a gun there isn't so much you can do against a suspect with a rifle. I'm aware that shooting incidents are extremely rare in the UK due to their gun laws, but the whole debate regarding issueing handguns to police officers in the UK is kinda hilarious. Talking about expecting the unexpected, there is always a chance of a British 'Breivik' to happen. Debate will be over when that happens, because we aren't no longer talking about contained incidents. There will always be people with completely twisted minds like Breivik running around. You kinda rely on armed police to stop lone wolves like that as soon as possible. It's imo unacceptable they would have to wait an extra five minutes (probably longer) for a UK firearm unit to respond to a killing spree like that. But that's just me, it's imo worth the investment to issue handguns to all police officers to save innocent lives including those of police officers. Or are incidents like this (a murder of 2 UK police officers while on duty) considered acceptable losses in the UK? Because -unfortunately- thats what they basically are.The video is shocking, but other than the suspect (+ his daughter and his mother-in-law?), nobody died right? The officer who got shot survived, thank god. No offence, but there are far worse shooting incidents, like that Rodger kid who went on a killing spree a few weeks ago, because he couldn't get a girl. If the same incident was to happen in the UK, almost exactly the same response would have happened but with unarmed and then armed officers as they arrived. This was a murder that turned into a barricaded-suspect situation, he set fire to the house and one could suppose he was trying to start a victim-precipitated suicide by cop by engaging the police. One could argue that the deterrent of armed officers prevented him from fleeing the scene but that seems unlikely. An example of a guy shooting from a house can be seen in the Mark Saunders case, if you like I can send you the 320 page report in a PM To talk about your Breivik point, what if a Breivik does happen? How long did it take for Armed Norwegian police to arrive to arrest Breivik? How long before armed American officers reached Columbine, Sandy Hook, the Aurora Cinema? The answer was always too late, missed by a minute or an hour, it doesn't matter. Incidents like Breivik cannot be predicted and arguing for a specific response to those that is present all the time seems a waste of money - what about small-town American Police/Sheriff Departments that have to rely on State/County SWAT (equiv.) assets? I'm pretty sure most Police Departments don't have Armoured Vehicles the like of which we saw was required in the video above.The murder of PC Bones and Hughes was an interesting case - they were lured to a suspects address for the purpose of him murdering them, If you read the IPCC Report, unfortunately now no longer publicly available, one officer had drawn her TASER, this easily could have been their duty sidearm and they still might have died. Unfortunately it does come down to acceptable losses - we have had 71 Officers fatally shot since 1900 (0.62 p.a.) and the way armed policing in the UK has changed has meant the number of firearms officers has only been falling to account for tighter restrictions on gun laws.I seem to remember I argued with MikesPhotos about UK Armed policing when I was a gobby, and probably wrong, teenager. In my third year of a Criminology degree, and having done a 10 000 dissertation on Armed Policing in the UK, I hope people can understand my enthusiasm for this particular subject EDIT: In conclusion then, I suppose, British police get by, armed incidents are rare and there is a fear that arming every officer would see levels of professionalism drop and necessary increases in accidental and incorrect shootings. There is a difference in the power that an armed policeman and an unarmed 'Bobby' has, but read some Waddington (1990) if you want to know more about that. The OC-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred03 Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 All I'm going to say is that if I was a LEO, I would want as the maximum number of tools/training at my disposal. Yes I'd want a gun on my hip, I'd also want a taser, mace, baton, and a rifle and a shotgun in my car and most importantly all the training I could get, be it SWAT, EMS, Mentally Ill, whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
met police999 Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 interestingly i recently done an talk in English (persuasive) on the arming of our police, in my opinion it would affect policing in Britain as our police are currently approachable by the public. Arming them would make many members of the public feel uneasy talking to them as it is unusual. But i do believe that more armed or even just firearm trained officers are necessary in tackling gun crime in the UK as it is slowly on the rise. As for our way of policing it is completely different to any other country officers lives are rarely but in danger in these ways and in most cases of officers being killed on duty in the UK a firearm would have no affect in the outcome our armed officers are reliable with around 300 Firearm trained officers in Scotland alone. As for the other points made i would say theocd covered them well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomperson139 Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Obviously in areas like London, ARVs are always patrolling and are quick getting to incidents. The same can be said of other larger cities, in the nearest to me, I regularly see ARVs patrolling in both marked and unmarked units. Although, in Cumbria, the whole thing is done a bit differently. As well as having Firearms Officers, there are a number of their Roads Policing Officers operate a dual role, in that they are also Firearms Officers. So their RPU cars double as ARVs as and when needed, so there are a larger number available therefore quicker response times and more coverage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyPI Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Escalation is always a problem, not the mention the fact IF a cop car has weapons IN it, it's an easy mark for a free assault rifle in the trunk. I won't comment on this particular incident, because I'm sure most of you would disagree with my opinion. In general response times have nothing to do with a siege type event, the goal is to secure the perimeter, not move in at engage the subject... This means that regardless to how fast/well armed the first response is, it will NOT engage the potential threat directly unless forced to anyway.. That is why incidents like columbine go on for so long.. Who is the subject in question? What are they armed with? How many? Do they have hostages? Will we further endanger lives by moving in too fast without correct intel? Did they set traps? Are there IEDs present? The list goes on and on, to say that a gun makes a difference, it doesnt... Responses are done by protocols set by the powers that be, adding more firepower or an armored truck won't change the scenario and how it plays out unless you've got a North Hollywood type of incident going down, which even in "gun culture" america is horribly rare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred03 Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 You're right about columbine, the "officer/scene safety" mentality slowed down the response big time, you'll note that didn't happen at Sandy Hook though (I'll admit it didn't make much of a difference) but that mentality is chaining. You're right about the response times for barricade incidents but for active shooters it can make a difference I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
met police999 Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 You have to take note that they have changed procedure alot since those incidents. As with Mikey's statement of "it's an easy mark for a free assault rifle in the trunk." the firearms are kept in a locked safe in the vehicle until needed and most services keep quiet about the what vehicles the tactical firearms unit operates for example Fife constabulary (now Fife division of Police Scotland) would not say what Vehicles are ARV's even under the freedom of information act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomperson139 Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 most services keep quiet about the what vehicles the tactical firearms unit operates for example Fife constabulary (now Fife division of Police Scotland) would not say what Vehicles are ARV's even under the freedom of information act.And yet the Met put big yellow circles on all their ARVs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
met police999 Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Yea forgot to mention that haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkyTheGamer Posted June 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Mmm, so what are the gun restrictions in the UK? DO you need a permit? Is it easy to obtain an illegal weapon easily? In the US you have dealers right around the corner where ever you go I give major props to the police of England, in my mind they are 10x better than the police in the US, as all you have to do over here is aim a weapon/taser at a suspect and they will go down. But, in England you have to drag the suspect to the ground, watch this video - **BE ADVISED, GRAPHIC VIDEO ONCE AGAIN.* No one in this video has died, it is just graphic in what has been done to a Police Officer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
met police999 Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 It is very strict and there's a pretty thorough background check you have to keep ammunition under lock and key in one part of the house and the firearm itself in another under lock and key its strict but affective your waiting a good few years until you actually get your license as well. It is also hard to get one illegally most gun owners in the UK are farmers anyway. EDIT: Just something that irks me is that you said England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland along with England make up the UK, unless you were being specific to England then i apologize. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkyTheGamer Posted June 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 It is very strict and there's a pretty thorough background check you have to keep ammunition under lock and key in one part of the house and the firearm itself in another under lock and key its strict but affective your waiting a good few years until you actually get your license as well. It is also hard to get one illegally most gun owners in the UK are farmers anyway. EDIT: Just something that irks me is that you said England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland along with England make up the UK, unless you were being specific to England then i apologize. The UK in general, they all don't carry weapons, init? If they don't carry a sidearm they got my mad respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred03 Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Just like correctional officers in the US (they don't get the respect they deserve) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
