Volunteer POV lights

[Fred03]

A number of people will tend to say "it only saves you a few seconds, minutes at the most" the response I generally gave was "well in this business seconds matter" .

 

And thank you, I guess I didn't see that about NFK. I guess for SAR you don't need as much on scene "visibility" as the initial responders do for other incidents.

[Newfoundking]

Well, we're a SAR department, yes, but we work with the Police a lot too, so we'll do more than your basic looking for lost people as well. Even still, it's generally off the road, or closed roads. I can only think of one time when we had a rig left on the road and it was left open. 

[MikeyPI]

My feelings as someone who's got the lights on one of my cars is that in reality most the people who have them really don't need them (myself included). While mine isnt a light farm, they still look out of place on my POV.. In america it isnt normal to see lights on my particular car, but it's lit up with police lights just the same... From my experience the lights really don't make people move too fast anyway because again my car is not commonly an emergency vehicle in america, now the air horn works quite well at scaring people half to death and making them move quickly out of the way. But again the "seconds counting" really doesnt come into play with me, mine were put on for work duty that I rarely if ever even need them for, meaning most the time they are hidden quietly out of sight and never even seen by most people unless you lean down and look at the roof inside the car. Seconds may count, but when you have more vehicles responding with emergency lighting (perhaps not heeding regulations or knowing another emergency vehicle may be approaching that same intersection) you end up with a messy accident because both vehicles assumed right of way without yielding in an attempt to make it to the scene faster.

 

In the end yes the lights serve a purpose, but they can only serve that purpose if used responsibly, and considering that most POV's don't have a full blown "black box" or camera running when they are responding to a scene it just gives alot of room to not abide by the regulations set by municipalities/gov or the departments in question, resulting in abusive behavior that can cause more harm than good.  Yes it is usually the one rotten egg, but in this world it's the one rotten egg that spoils the whole dish.

[Newfoundking]

Mike made a comment just then about a black box/camera. What does everyone think about enforcing a rule such that any time lights are activated on your vehicle, a camera similar to police dashcams is activated that records everything about what you're doing. Do you think this would be a good investment?

[Fred03]

I would love that if it was part of the insurance policy or something, its a pain to get your POV covered for responding.

[MikeyPI]

All modern cars have such a "black box" that is capable of telling the last 30 seconds to 1 minute of the vehicle operation IE brake input, speed, forces incurred, etc... GM started putting them in their cars around about 1998, the rest of the auto makers have put in a similar system with the computer controlled nature of the automobiles today.  The problem with the system is that it is easy to fool/clear... IF you spin the wheels the speedo reads the wheel speed, not actual for example, if ABS is offline (this can be done by the driver) it shows the speed as 0 even though the vehicle is still obviously moving.  The car equiv of a black box just doesnt work as well as a full blown recording of the incident.  Alot of gov't vehicles have to have cameras operative while in operation, sadly POV aint one of em.

[Lt GMFD]

Maine, USA // Red + White Lights. Sirens only for Chief Officers.

[Fred03]

Well I found its bloody difficult to get insurance on your POV for when you are using it as a emergency vehicle (since in my state it is considered a emergency vehicle) One of the biggest reasons is (or so I've heard) that you are automatically at fault for any wreck you are involved in while responding and its very hard to prove you are not at fault, I think dash-cams could fix that issue.

[Newfoundking]

I don't believe in the automatically at fault thing, because people tend to be stupid. Does that mean that red light means you're never at fault? Hell no. I'd say it's a 70/30 split, at best. I've seen accidents where the driver of the EV blew a light without due regard, and smashed into another vehicle, or say overtook without clearing the other side of the road. This is common here in police more than anything, because police cars tend to be flying around more than the rest. I've also seen incidents, where with due regard, say an ambulance would clear an intersection, like full stop, not rolling, and get halfway into the intersection when someone blows the light, trying to beat the ambulance.

 

The CRU here apparently prefers these types of MVAs, because it's easier to determine who is at fault (an ambulance going 15 on a 70 road hit by a car doing 70, the car is more than likely at fault) but I digress. 

 

Lighting here isn't something you see a lot of on private vehicles, not that it doesn't happen, because it does, but it's not something people use a lot of, and when they do, it's almost always with due regard, especially when it's THEIR vehicle. I think in NL, the MVA responding priority 1 accident rate is like less than 1 every 5 years

[MikeyPI]

Here the emergency vehicle is not at fault regardless of what it's done, so they tend to behave a bit more accordingly to that law if you can guess my meaning.... I am a great example of someone that just by using the blinky lights and blowing a light, the lights and siren on with a reasonable cause for being on I'd not be held liable for plowing into your mini-van... You should've heeded the warning lights and siren and not been in my wreckless way... I think it's rediculous because due regard should be practiced but the law says they arent at fault and as such more police than ems/fire behave more wrecklessly.

[Fred03]

Well one thing I've noticed is when the lights go on the IQs go down all over, the POV drivers are excited and the other drivers always do the worse thing possible. I've had people come to a dead stop in front of me, swerve all over and do all kinds of other dumb things when I have my lights on, and I was always taught (by my department anyway) that no matter what they do its my responsibility to make sure I don't wreck and my fault if I do.

[EmergencyFan97]

Some updates for SC:

 

Light color: Red, white, and blue are legal.  Common sense dictates that blue is not used, as blue is exclusively used on police vehicles here by tradition.

Lights:  Visibility must be 360 degress by law, but this is often overlooked as long as you have front, rear, and intersection lights.  Most chiefs require lights on the highest point of the car, aka, an exterior light.

Siren: Anything.  So long as it makes sound.  We're authorized to use bells, whistles, sirens, and horns.  (literally).  I know of many people (not just FFs) that have train horns on their POV.  Mostly for the shiggles.

 

You are also required to be interior-certified to run lights (or a first responder).  Department chiefs are allowed to impose whatever restrictions they like, to include no lights at all, etc.  My department requires you to not run lights until 17, regardless of certification.  A neighboring department requires you to be 17, interior-certified, and disallows code 3 response to AFAs and brush fires w/o endangered structures.  Many chiefs also require a class on POV Response.

[youdotoo]

Train horns, you say? That could be interesting. 

[Fred03]

I know many places have the laws written so as to include all kinds of weird things, I think its Missouri that allows a "addible warning device" and allows "bells, sirens, horns and exhaust whistles".

[Newfoundking]

Here the law states the same, Bells, Horns, or Train whisltles can be used in addition to an audible warning device, commonly known as a siren. This is more of an old time thing, just not written out

[AgentSmith6]

I was just down in Kentucky a few weeks ago, it seemed like all of the vollies had red lights but I'm not sure about sirens to be honest

[Newfoundking]

Yep, you did, that's the law down there. It Shall display the lights. Not may, so chiefs of departments can't limit it, they've gotta run them

 

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/statutes/statute.aspx?id=39895

[MikeyPI]

I shall display so many lights that a plane SHALL try to land on the interstate in front of me

[Fred03]

You would get along well with some of the guys in my area with that attitude...

[Marshall8946]

Here in Ohio, volunteers can have red/white for the front; Amber/red for the rear. Sirens must be "Society of Automotive Engineers" (SAE) approved. Neither lights or sirens are required to be a volunteer. But you cannot have a siren, and no lights. Each vehicle must pass an inspection to be considered a public safety vehicle. The requirements can be found here. Once passed, the person will be issued a sticker to be placed on the vehicle.

 

Opinion on lights.

Lighting should not be excessive, but not be too little. You want traffic to see you, but not be blinding or look more light a decorative vehicle and not be taken seriously. Most guys on my department just run with one lightbar or mini lightbar. I'm not too sure, but I know most of them have a siren. Some typically just dont run with a siren on.

My current non emergency lights are: Amber rear lights(more like a directional but not one), white/amber dash light in the front, custom automotive lights for the side hood and front bumper(light blue kind of like HID colored lights, they have many optional patterns or can be left on steady(my driving lights)), and small custom white led lights on the side front bumper(I call intersection lights).

The nice thing about my lights, once my vehicle goes through inspection, I can swap out the dash light to a red/white one and already be set. Or keep both up there.

 

My opinion on cameras.

Personally in my vehicle, I have a dash camera that is always on. Whether I'm just out cruising or responding I always have it running. I also use a small GoPro camera just because or as a backup. I plan on getting a rear camera as well. I recommend a vehicle camera for anyone. If you get into an accident it can easily show who is at fault. Scamming in my area has become a higher concern. As well, for volunteers we cannot drive crazy and barrel through intersections to respond. So if anyone were to say we drove reckless, my camera would show otherwise. I noticed too that police officers like to spot volunteers responding(not in my area). If they were arise a concern on our responding, you now have video proof. My camera was only $20 and works perfectly! I've been using it for over a year now.

 

The topic of responding to the scene directly was brought up. It all depends on the department. I noticed some do have volunteer medics go directly to the scene if they have their gear with them on their POV. My department does not allow this, we must go directly to the station.

[MikeyPI]

Sadly for me I notice most vehicles are now light farms, once upon a time one was planted in the dashboard area, maybe the grille, and unfortunately just like pollen the wind spreads them across the car to where there isnt a single facet that is not loaded with the friggin things anymore.  In my opinion the corner alley/intersection lights in the primary turn signal cells and/or on the pushbumper serve a purpose, as does forward and rearward emergency lighting (within reason), but when you get into lighting up the whole upper deck of the windshield, along with grille lights, along with wig-wags, along with intersection/alleys in the turn signals, along with mirror lights, you've way crossed the line to obnoxiously lit.  My vehicle just has a simple flatlighter on the visor, grille leds hidden nicely by the chrome, and strobing reverse lights, if that aint enough light then my obnoxious siren should get the point across, if not there is always the airhorn function, electronic though it may be it is still dangerously loud.  IMO the quantity of lights does NOT improve visibility, if a moron isnt going to see you with minimal lighting, he sure aint going to see through the haze of blinding LEDs all over some of these newer cars.

[firefighter111]

I'm not sure about the whole green light thing, it seems a odd color for emergency lights. I'm aware that where people are used to it things might be different but if I was driving along and saw flashing green lights ahead of me on the road it wouldn't have the same "oh that's a emergency vehicle" response as red or blue lights would. The same thing applies for white lights which is one of the arguments I've heard against them even though they can be seen from a greater distance.

Agreed, especially since a green light is now used to detonate a command post. NY uses green for volunteer EMS. Back to the vffs, any volunteer emt, including VFD based ems, in NY can get their vehicle certified as a NYS DOH certified emergency vehicle (requires stocking the vehicle to NYS DOH health code part 800) and run red lights and siren as an emergency vehicle.

[Newfoundking]

You would get along well with some of the guys in my area with that attitude...

Here's the thing. Your acquaintance is a whacker, Mike just does it because he can. You know the saying give an inch, they take a mile? They're still working on a unit of measurement for how much Mike will take when presented

[Johhnnyy]

On 4/20/2013 at 7:19 PM, squamishfire said:

In BC if i remember correctly no pocv or vol can't have any lights on their vehicles.

The one ur think boss cat is Saskatchewan I believe or it might be Manitoba. I have hears that.

In Ontario your allowed a green light.

It might be that if your vehicle has a provincial license plate then your allowed a light of some kind. I haven't checked on this though.

I live in Saskatchewan. We use red lights and sirens for Volunteer Firefighter POVs, and  they are EMERGENCY VEHICLES. But your particular Municipality must designate POVs as such in a bylaw (optional). If your Municipality says yes, it then falls on the chief's responsibility to decide who out of all the individual firefighters gets approval to use the lights and sirens in their car, and who doesn't. You must pass a SEVO (Saskatchewan Emergency Vehicle Operators) course. Pass all 3 steps, you can fit your car with reds and sirens!

P.S: Rank is irrelevant here! It's down to the municipality, then the chief if municipality says yes, then pass a SEVO if the chief blesses you! If your municipality does NOT make a bylaw designating POVs as emergency vehicles, then this is not permissible.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Johhnnyy
Further expansion on clarification

[Johhnnyy]

On 4/20/2013 at 3:59 PM, Fred03 said:

Hey folks I have been having trouble coming up with a list of what lights the different VFFs across America and Canada can run. For those of you who are volunteer firefighters or know about your local VFFs please post your light color, state, and any other relevant information.
Thanks
Here is what I have

British Columbia- no lights
Illinois-Amber and Blue only

Massachusetts- Red with siren
Missouri-Blue, white with sirens for chiefs.
Nova Scotia- Green courtesy lights, Chiefs-Red
Newfoundland- Blue lights for VFFs (civilians too)
New York-Blue only
New Jersy-Blue lights but no speeding, red for chiefs and officers
Ohio-Red only
Ontario-Green
Pennsylvania-Blue (2 max), red and sirens for chiefs
South Carolina-no blue lights, anything else is okay
Texas- Red and white
Wisconsin-Red, must run siren when responding.

Saskatchewan-Red lights and siren.

P.S: I thought Ohio did use lights and sirens for POVs. Very weird