Volunteer POV lights

[njboy13]

Newfoundland doesn't restrict light colors, especially blue, and is commonly seen on snow plows, contractors and utility vehicles.

BC volunteers not having lights can be better explained below.

The majority of studies I've seen show a complete disagreement with volunteer POV lights. In many rural settings, or settings where there would be volunteer response vehicles, there are very few traffic lights and major intersections. There's a volunteer fire department here that covers a semi-rural area. That area has two traffic light intersections. Realistically, few people EVER make a full stop at stop signs, and will do what is known as a "rolling stop." Also, most cops won't pull you over for anything less than 10 over the limit, which is usually the upper limit on emergency vehicles' speed. I'm not strongly opposed to it, but I will explain why I disagree with it.

• There is VERY few intersections, so a red light will not do anything that will be noticeable. Most studies show a speed of arrival of seconds or less faster, if at all for siren running POVs
  
• Many people driving POVs with sirens tend to think they're police cars, and will speed, blow intersections and do dangerous things. Trust me, I have seen it. The majority of wrecks involving Volunteer responders, including POVs as well as regular emergency vehicles, are POVs with sirens doing stupid things
  
• Insurance often freaks out and will wanna double or triple rates, as emergency vehicles have higher insurance rates than private vehicles
  
• A red light isn't a reward, it's a tool to respond. Anyone that thinks getting allowance to use it is a reward shouldn't be doing it.
  

And it's for those reasons I despise POV's. Too many people (Not saying everybody) that think just because they have the privilege to use lights, their car automatically becomes an emergency vehicle (And yes, I know in some states it does, and I don't know why). Honestly, if you wanna shorten response times instead of wasting hundreds or thousands of dollars on lights to turn your car into a pretend emergency vehicle, here's my proposal. Either the entire crew or maybe at least 2 people (Driver and an extra person) stay at the station in shifts 24/7. Those trucks go to the scene, people in their own cars go to the scene.

At this point I'm paid, the volunteer EMS organization I was with actually transitioned over to being paid recently after being combo volly and per diem for a while, but what my department did was make all crews stay at the building, or otherwise with their ambulance & crews. Want food? Take the ambulance & crew. Need to go shopping or stop at your house? Take the ambulance and crew or do it later. Don't need to worry about POV's or who's going to the scene and who's picking up the truck. We are also in an urban area, and are relatively buys, so that's part of why, but the important part is shortest response time possible, because your with your crew and ambulance the whole time. If you really wanna increase the chance of saving a life or lessen property damage, that's how it should be done, and how most if not all volunteer places should be operated.

[Newfoundking]

I'm involved in Search and Rescue and we do not have sirens on our personal vehicles. We do have stickers in the front and rear windows, mostly for the police (they tend to let us travel a bit faster if we've got the stickers) and they identify our vehicles so we can get into crime scenes. There's only one member with sirens on his vehicle, and he's considered "the chief" by law, so he can run sirens and lights, but even he doesn't use them that often, as it doesn't really do much in the way of traffic clearing.

[Thomasvista207]

In NC, its no siren, but I believe red lights and air horn are allowed.

[Fred03]

Thanks.

[Thomasvista207]

Confirmed:

"GS 20-130.1 gives authority to volunteer firefighters (as well as some other people) the authority to have and use red lights. Sirens and other audible warning devices are restricted to department Chiefs and Assistant Chiefs." So no air horns after all.

[FireShooter10]

In Massachusetts you are allowed to run reds only and a siren if you obtain a permit for each.

[Fred03]

Thanks

[greenlights]

After reading the posts here I just had to open an account and say a few things. Nova Scotia does not allow Green Lights and I know this for a fact as I have been trying to have our highway traffic act changed starting in 2008. Also when someone says that firefighters are dying while responding due to the use of the lights they really should research this before making that statement. I have a letter from NIOSH who investigates deaths in the States that very clearly says that they are not aware of firefighters deaths cause by them using a light or light and siren.

 

Those who disagree with the use of the lights will tell you that 25% of firefighters are caused during responding and returning. So first to be fare lets take out returning as we don't use light when headed back to the dept. lets take out boats, helicopters, water planes, peddle bike etc. So when you finally take the time to go over all the reports and break it down just to POV's as that is what we are all talking about it is at 3%. Now lets take out the ones that don't use a light while responding and I think you can understand how the % has changed.

 

I just find that when people start talking about lights on POV's that they say a lot of things they might have read somewhere be it right or wrong. Do you know that in Quebec they did a pilot project for a year that lasted 13 due to them working so well with NO problems (green courtesy Lights).

 

The next thing you will hear is that I see firefighters flying all over the place all the time, ask them what they did when they seen this happening and most will say nothing. Next ask them if the pov was responding to an emergency or not, answer will mostly be I don't know. Then ask them who was driving the pov at the time the pov was flying down the road. Was it the firefighter or was it their daughter, wife, son, brother etc etc.

 

Now I am not sure but in my sixteen years of responding with fire trucks and driving a school bus I have never miss used or went flying down the road and maybe that is because I was trained like the rest of firefighters not to.

 

If we are trusted to respond with fire trucks, remove people from wrecked vehicles, search buildings for people and if need be give our life to protect others are you really say you don't trust us to us a light to respond to an emergency.  

 

My God some people should really take the time to sit back and think of what we do and give up to volunteer and here we receive no money and I mean know money for what we do. 

 

Who do most people trust when asked that question, firefighters and it seems the only ones that don't trust us is the people that are ahead of the fire service. Oh an by the way most of them respond in their pov with a red light and siren....

 

 

Anyway thanks for the place to rant................lol

 

But as I said please research before you post as there is always be someone that has the right information.

 

 

Thanks

[Guest]

Welcome

[Fred03]

@greenlights

I agree with you that volunteers should be allowed to run lights/siren, but I still think they should be required to take a Emergency Vehicle Operations Course before they are allowed. I have lights and a siren on my POV and I believe I do a decent job of using them safely, however I had the added benefit of having a firefighter on my department who was your typical "whacker", had more lights on his POV than we did on the apparatus and drove to minor brush fires like a bat out of hell. It took me very little time being around other firefighters (not my own department) to get the "don't be that guy impression" I think that while the vast majority of firefighters who respond POV drive well its people like him that give us a bad name in the communities, and unfortunate in the statistics (found here and other places online http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5516a3.htm)

[Newfoundking]

As the old saying goes, it's the bad apple that ruins the bunch. When you're doing your job right, no one notices. When you do it badly, then everyone notices. 

[Fred03]

Fortunately when we do our job right the results are there, even if people don't notice. The thing that's hard to quantify is the couple more feet of property that you saved by getting there a few minutes earlier in your POV.

[Newfoundking]

Actually, the math exists for that. I can't remember the equations themselves, but it essentially follows for fires that you go from the time it started, and then the damage done until the arrival of the first unit, calculating the time. You then can project (with fire science of course) the damage that would be done over time if left unattended, and figure out how long it takes to spread, or completely destroy the property, or even both. Then it's just to look at the time it took the department to put out the fire upon arriving, and looking at similar cases, take a projection of what it'd be responding to station without lights and/or sirens, and the delay caused. It'd take work, but you could break down how badly damaged a building would be without or with priority 1 response the whole way, as opposed to just from station. 

 

You could apply this much easier to medical type runs, because it's considered fact the time that a person has from many different ailments, and they can often say with certainty that if it was x time units longer, they would be dead, or a vegetable or whatever. 

[greenlights]

The first thing is what and where the hell did the word whackers come from. To me anyone that breaks the rules of the department no matter what they are is a firefighter breaking the rules set in place by the department. If they are driving light a nut and deck out with lights all over their pov then it seems they would be a firefighter breaking the rules of who ever set them in place of what lights to use on a pov. The driving part would seem the be a firefighter breaking the rules of the highway traffic act and should be charged under the act. The rules set in place by the department should be in forced by the department and should be up held by the department. 

 

If there is a light law that is in place and states the type of light then why would any firefighter have to many lights on their pov and get away with doing it. Pull the lights from them or just remove them from the department the same way you would if they were breaking the rules in any other way. 

 

Training is a must and would be the first thing a firefighter would need before responding with the use of a light. (true emergency) and if the chief is letting them respond to a grass fire with the use of lights and sirens then that should fall back on him/her to enforce the rules and have them set in place. If they have to get a permit to use lights then pull the permit. 

 

I stick by the courtesy light as a request of the right of way and not breaking any rules during the response. I have herd how will that make you any quicker. Well if you had ten cars in front of you and they pulled to the right it would make sense that it would be quicker. As we all have been there when there is that one car in front of the line doing below the posted limit and if they move over and you can now do the posted limit it would be quicker.

 

Battalion Chief... I went over all those stats and when they are posted they way it is there it does sound bad. But as I said I broke them down and I mean I went over every Fatality for car crashes from 200 to 2008. It took me a very long time but the real % when responding and only responding is around 3% which is still to high as we all would like to see all % zero. When you use % it always sound different, lets take baseball and they guy only gets 10 at bats for the year and had ten hits for those 10 at bats. I think he would have a batting average of a 100%, sounds good at the end of the season until they look and see he only was up 10 times compared to all the other players that were at bat 100's of times. A person really needs to go over every stat and I mean every one of them which I did and the % as I said is 3% for responding, oh and not all the ones in that 3% used a light on their pov.

 

Anyway it would be nice to see them do a real study and see what works and what doesn't and have the same allowed across the States or Canada as in my case so that people would know as they travel that all are the same and when they see the firefighter displaying a light they would know that he/she are responding to a true emergency.

 

Art 

[Fred03]

I do agree with you mostly as for the phrase "wacker" I have mostly heard it used in the terms of a person who is very enthusiastic (maybe a little too much), for example someone who has $2000 worth of lights on a $15000 car. In my area we have no limit on what amount of lights we can put on our POVs. I have enough lights on my POV to be seen on all sides, since I respond to the incident instead of the station and often have mine parked on the side of the road. As for the exceeding the speed limit we can legally do that as long as we drive "with due regard" however I am not in as secure a position in the department as the person in question is and its not my call its the chief's of course. As for true emergencies as you well know just because you are dispatched to a "small grass fire" does not mean that's what you are going to, it could be anything. But in general I think we are on the same side here, I have found my lights very useful going to fires since some people in my area regularly drive at or under the speed limit. Also the additional safety of having POVs on scene for traffic control outweighs the risks incurred.

 

Here is the Urban Dictionary for a better definition of wackers http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wacker

[greenlights]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wacker          lol

[OPPFAN134]

In Ontario you can have 1 Green light, no more. And no Sirens either.

 

Saskatchewan now allows Red Lights and Sirens, but they need special training from the Province.

[Fred03]

I'm not sure about the whole green light thing, it seems a odd color for emergency lights. I'm aware that where people are used to it things might be different but if I was driving along and saw flashing green lights ahead of me on the road it wouldn't have the same "oh that's a emergency vehicle" response as red or blue lights would. The same thing applies for white lights which is one of the arguments I've heard against them even though they can be seen from a greater distance.

[Newfoundking]

The argument I've heard for green lights is that it's something different. Everyone knows red is emergency in NA. Then we've got blue, which varies from place to place, but no matter where it is, it has a set definition. Amber is look out for me, not make room for me, and white is more of an auxiliary light than anything. The idea with green is it's so different from the rest, it can be assigned a different meaning. 

 

As for whackers, one thing assumed is that every whacker breaks the rules. Most do not break the rules, they just take them to the limit. It's not against the rules to have your radio up, and a team shirt on everywhere you go, but you won't be at it all the time making yourself known, unless you're a whacker. Here we put stickers on our vehicles, one driver window, and two rear window, that designate us as part of the department we're with, and is essentially a way for the police to know if your vehicle can be where it can be, because we don't have any different plates from the rest of the province, however we will work on the other side of the yellow tape frequently. So the rule is have some stickers on your car. Some people make sure there's a sticker on EVERYTHING they own, their phone case, their car, their bag, etc. Just so that they can be known. These are whackers. Again, not breaking the rules, just making it known who they are. 

[Fred03]

The sticker thing seems a little unnecessary (I understand though if its the law) the people on your department should know everyone's POVs and if it has a green light going I would think the police would be able to figure out that it was a volunteer's POV. And you're right about wackers, they stay legal just cross the boundary of good taste.

[Newfoundking]

The stickers are because we don't run lights on our vehicle that are visible from outside, we've got good people for hiding lights, and when we are on scene, there's no lights flashing anyways, too hard to see things. The stickers work as a Do Not Ticket, Do Not Tow, Do Not Pullover thing. I don't know if it's luck, or if it's fear, but not a single parking ticket has been placed on my car since I put the stickers in the windows. And for reference, the stickers are approximately 1/3 banana. They're not like decals by any means.

 

It's typical here to see departments issue stickers for POVs, even to paid firefighters who do not use their POV for work. 

[Fred03]

You don't leave your lights on on-scene? I've used mine with its lights on to shut down traffic lots of times, also helps the apparatus find the location if I get there first. Although I can kill my very (very) bright light separate for working at night if it gets irritating. Do you shut down lights on your apparatus on scene too? Is that a tradition or a policy?

[Newfoundking]

We seldom operate on roadways and when we do, they're shut down. You need to remember, I'm not a firefighter. 

[Fred03]

Oh what are you?

[theocd]

He's Search and Rescue, he said it a few posts back.

I'm not sure what I feel about Lights on POV's, I was both disappointed and relieved when blues and twos got removed from Community First Responders. Yes, they now respond more slowly to emergencies, but they're community so locality means it'll be quicker than an ambulance. It reduces the need for training or having people who can only operate blue lights under certain conditions who aren't really assessed.

Green courtesy lights exist for Doctors in the UK, they are seldom used (you more often see them alongside blue on cars such as HEMS has) and offer no right of way (unless alongside blues). THat might be where Canada got the idea from? o.O

 

The OC-D