When you hear America(n), what do you think?

[Newfoundking]

To the dismay of many, the american army is out numbered by millions in some countries... Think the koreas, last time I checked, both had compulsory military service.

Also, I typed up a large explanation before, but it didn't post, so I'll sum it up. The americans did not win WWII, they joined halfway through it, and spent most of it fighting the japanese, the Nazis were bet by the British colonies, and the (un)occupied countries. Hitler got his ass handed to him by Churchill and Stalin, not the US... mind you, America did participate, but even if they didn't, the nazis still would've lost. The japanese, well, who knows. Considering most of that war was taken by the americans, well that's up to them. As for the USSR, they were doomed to fail from day one... Americans didn't overthrow them, they kinda went down on their own... Mind you, the americans did fight them a lot, and hold them back, but didn't directly cause the collapse, instead they were just another pawn.. Remember, the soviet leaders didn't care about the people, and therefore would waste and spend lives and money like it was going out of style, this led to their demise..

[MCERT1]

Hitler got his ass handed to him by Churchill and Stalin, not the US... mind you, America did participate, but even if they didn't, the nazis still would've lost.

Just a counterpoint to that...What country was responsible for running supplies and assistance to them before both countries were able to rebound and start successfully pushing back against Axis expansion?

And quite frankly, as much as I appreciate the contributions of all nations in the Allied offensive...I'd have to give a good 80% credit for the win to Soviet people (not Stalin).

[JimmyKid]

To the dismay of many, the american army is out numbered by millions in some countries... Think the koreas, last time I checked, both had compulsory military service.

Also, I typed up a large explanation before, but it didn't post, so I'll sum it up. The americans did not win WWII, they joined halfway through it, and spent most of it fighting the japanese, the Nazis were bet by the British colonies, and the (un)occupied countries. Hitler got his ass handed to him by Churchill and Stalin, not the US... mind you, America did participate, but even if they didn't, the nazis still would've lost. The japanese, well, who knows. Considering most of that war was taken by the americans, well that's up to them. As for the USSR, they were doomed to fail from day one... Americans didn't overthrow them, they kinda went down on their own... Mind you, the americans did fight them a lot, and hold them back, but didn't directly cause the collapse, instead they were just another pawn.. Remember, the soviet leaders didn't care about the people, and therefore would waste and spend lives and money like it was going out of style, this led to their demise..

Not trying to be a >:| , but the US had 2 beaches alone on D Day, the Brits had 1 (with people from occupied countries, and escaped aka Poland, France), and the Canadians had 1... So, yes they had a significant part, "plus Pointe - du - hoc" (correct if wrong) was the most defended area on the 5 beaches.

[EmergencyFan97]

To the dismay of many, the american army is out numbered by millions in some countries... Think the koreas, last time I checked, both had compulsory military service.

Also, I typed up a large explanation before, but it didn't post, so I'll sum it up. The americans did not win WWII, they joined halfway through it, and spent most of it fighting the japanese, the Nazis were bet by the British colonies, and the (un)occupied countries. Hitler got his ass handed to him by Churchill and Stalin, not the US... mind you, America did participate, but even if they didn't, the nazis still would've lost. The japanese, well, who knows. Considering most of that war was taken by the americans, well that's up to them. As for the USSR, they were doomed to fail from day one... Americans didn't overthrow them, they kinda went down on their own... Mind you, the americans did fight them a lot, and hold them back, but didn't directly cause the collapse, instead they were just another pawn.. Remember, the soviet leaders didn't care about the people, and therefore would waste and spend lives and money like it was going out of style, this led to their demise..

To add on to this, the world was about two months away from getting blown away. If the Red Army had not reached Berlin when they did, then Hitler would have had nukes in about two months. And I'm sure we can all agree he was insane enough to deploy them to certain places---London, D.C., Moscow. Hitler would have won, if the Red Army had not reached Berlin and taken the city.

[Ami89E1234]

Not trying to be a >:| , but the US had 2 beaches alone on D Day, the Brits had 1 (with people from occupied countries, and escaped aka Poland, France), and the Canadians had 1... So, yes they had a significant part, "plus Pointe - du - hoc" (correct if wrong) was the most defended area on the 5 beaches.

Wrong. The Americans had two beaches, Utah and Omaha, as well as Pointe-du-Hoc. The British had two beaches, Gold and Sword. The Canadians had Juno beach, in between Gold and Sword.

[JimmyKid]

Wrong. The Americans had two beaches, Utah and Omaha, as well as Pointe-du-Hoc. The British had two beaches, Gold and Sword. The Canadians had Juno beach, in between Gold and Sword.

Right.. I was thinking there 4.

But, the Canadians still kicked butt, getting twice as far as anyone else on D Day + 0

[MarkDillen]

Anyway, may catch flak from some UK users. but,

This is how the SEALS outdo a royal wedding.

\

But hey!

The US isn't the strongest. Look at China, N Korea. Both are Militarized, and can kick our @$$es in a JUST INFANTRY war. The US only can win with the USAF, USN. US with Navy/Air Force = Win. US with no navy/AF = Epic loss.

How 'bout them Chevys?

US guys! How about SOPA/PIPA? -_-

oh dear,

You resorted to using the death of osama as a retaliation.

What you fail to realise, is that america knew where he was 3-4 years before his death and they just sat on their thumbs. Or maybe your beloved seals got lost and spent the 3-4 years looking for him.

And Jimmykid... You had 2 beaches so you automatically won the second world war, after showing up 2 years after it started. First world war started 1914 and america joined in 1 year before it finished, and yet you still claim that you won them. Also if your inept military had noticed the invasion force heading towards pearl harbour ( see how I spell harbour correctly) then as a country you would have stayed neutral.

Funny how the two biggest attacks on US soil were missed by your military and intelligence until it was too late.

usmc123

yes the British army is taught to conserve ammo, remember up until 1985 we still used single shot weapons. The L1A1 SLR. Which had a longer range than your supposed 10 feet (rofl). But thanks for the nod, yes England does train their rifleman to fire at ranges of up to 300 metres, which means when they fire they actually hit the target. I believe the us marines like to keep their enemy at such a distance (longer than arms length) that they can't identify whether or not it's an enemy that's firing at them or friendly fire. Hence why Britain have a far more accurate infantry rifle than the US.

Hmmm american police are taught to shoot more rounds because all of your officers use guns.

British police are taught to use lethal force as a last resort.

In what world do you live where you think it takes more than 3 rounds to incapacitate or kill a person, even 1 well placed round will kill a person, as when a bullet hits the body it doesn't always go straight through (like the movies you watch). I know a guy who got shot in the chest and the bullet exited through his wrist.

And back to topic

We don't hate you. It might seem like it, but it's not the case when you peek behind the curtain.

However, what spoils the mix can essentially be explained as the right wing element of your country. By 'right wing' I mean the xenophobic, insular, ignorant, arrogant, bigotted part of the American population.

It appears that a great many of your people are being duped and either can't see it, or don't want to see it. You are largely all under the spell of Fox News and are being fed outrageous propaganda. But the mechanics are there for you to educate yourselves and discover the truth, but because of your natural insularity and refusal to show any interest in the outside world, you are spinning down into an ever deepening well of propaganda.

Basically, you are being fed simple treats to keep you all happy and are having propaganda whispered in your ear.

Trust me, we are equally fascinated by your culture, that's why it sells so well over here.

[aitor]

To add on to this, the world was about two months away from getting blown away. If the Red Army had not reached Berlin when they did, then Hitler would have had nukes in about two months. And I'm sure we can all agree he was insane enough to deploy them to certain places---London, D.C., Moscow. Hitler would have won, if the Red Army had not reached Berlin and taken the city.

Like the Iraq massive destruction weapons?

Winning the war was an all allied country effort, all were needed to win it, without americans they wouldn't probably win it so fast, but neither without the soviets, you also have to add the fail of Hitler in Russia, and that makes the victory of allieds.

About the D-Day, it was a fail, they did many mistakes, they bombed in the wrong place, they deployed airborne in the wrong place and they landed at the wrong our, when low tide, but they fought well and won. And they kicked their asses to the nazis. And in the pacific is true that the americans did almost all the war, but british also fought there.

But you've forgotten about the fail in Vietnam.

[JimmyKid]

Really? I never said that they won the war, I said they had a big part. Plus, the Bin Laden bit was NOT intended to be retailiation, its showing what the US has done, and was never implied that it was better, just happened close to each other. Plus, you are showing the face that you really hate the US, Also, my friend has recently gone through my area's police training course, and they aren't taught "Shoot to Kill," instead, its shoot to incapacitate, if needed, and that they should use the taser that is deployed, instead of the pistol.

Also if your inept military had noticed the invasion force heading towards pearl harbour ( see how I spell harbour correctly) then as a country you would have stayed neutral.

Funny how the two biggest attacks on US soil were missed by your military and intelligence until it was too late.

Really? The two biggest SURPRISE attacks you use? I have a pretty good idea what your hinting at about the second, and I think you shouldn't, because how would you feel if you knew a few people involved? Hmmm?

In my mind, you are trying to piss a lot of people off, thinking your better than them.

[EmergencyFan97]

Wrong. The Americans had two beaches, Utah and Omaha, as well as Pointe-du-Hoc. The British had two beaches, Gold and Sword. The Canadians had Juno beach, in between Gold and Sword.

Correct, Ami. And here's a source to back it up: http://en.wikipedia....order_of_battle

But you've forgotten about the fail in Vietnam.

Fail? Viet Nam (and yes, the correct spelling is Viet Nam, not Vietnam) was not a military fail, as is commonly believed. In every single major military encounter in which U.S. forces had a majority of allied troops, U.S. forces kicked the snot out of NLF and NVA forces. This was due to the insane amount of firepower available to U.S. troops. The reason that North Viet Nam eventually won was because the U.S. pulled out, leaving South Viet Nam with a largely inefficient military.

[erfd]

Tet Offensive was a major turing point. The allied forces and Militias tthere absolutley destryoed the Viet Cong invaders. Most were pushed out within 1-3 days, some took just hours. However, at the time, the US public was highly against the war, and the increase in US causilties (543 killed and 2,547 wounded) made it even worse. The Viet Cong and North Vietnamese lost 85,000–100,000 combined it the offensive and 45,000 in a previous battle (Border Battles).

This was a war that we could have one. The way you win wars is:

-Have public support-Nope-majority of the US was against the war

-Have allied support-Yes-the south vietnam govt wanted us there.

-Win the hearts and minds of the invaded countries people. Yes/No depending on the area- massacures occured of whole villages. If they had ties/tips on villages or people they would be killed/arrested and village burned. However, in areas this didnt happen and they were friendly, they had good ties.

-Have a dedicated proffesional army-No-Soliders served very short terms. Just as a group was getting expierenced and knowing what to do, they were sent home and a new group came in. They made the same mistakes over and over again.

Really, we had no reason to be there. THe real reason was to stop the spread of communisim. This was the same reason we were in Korea, Viet Nam, Cold War, etc.

[JimmyKid]

Really, we had no reason to be there. THe real reason was to stop the spread of communisim. This was the same reason we were in Korea, Viet Nam, Cold War, etc.

Cold War - Reason why everyone is afraid. Of rabbits. And worms, can't forget the Russian Nuclear Worms.

[usmc123]

usmc123

yes the British army is taught to conserve ammo, remember up until 1985 we still used single shot weapons. The L1A1 SLR. Which had a longer range than your supposed 10 feet (rofl). But thanks for the nod, yes England does train their rifleman to fire at ranges of up to 300 metres, which means when they fire they actually hit the target. I believe the us marines like to keep their enemy at such a distance (longer than arms length) that they can't identify whether or not it's an enemy that's firing at them or friendly fire. Hence why Britain have a far more accurate infantry rifle than the US.

Hmmm american police are taught to shoot more rounds because all of your officers use guns.

British police are taught to use lethal force as a last resort.

In what world do you live where you think it takes more than 3 rounds to incapacitate or kill a person, even 1 well placed round will kill a person, as when a bullet hits the body it doesn't always go straight through (like the movies you watch). I know a guy who got shot in the chest and the bullet exited through his wrist.

Have you even fired a weapon before? Most calibers WILL go straight through. Only certain types of bullets will devastate the body after it enters. The most common self-defense and military calibers go through and through. I also doubt you know a whole lot about the military, because modern warfare is all about suppression. It's been like that for sometime, in fact I guarantee this notion that you think that your troops actually can kill a Taliban insurgent, who I seriously doubt would even consider getting closer than 200 meters to a Coalition unit, with only 3 rounds in succession is completely ridiculous. It's clear to me you have little understanding about firearms or about the wars we are currently engaged in. In what world do you live in where the enemy is actually going to stand in the open and shoot at better armed troops, it's not going to happen. It seldom does. The Taliban are hardly seen, they shoot in dense vegetation and from concealed positions, as they should if they value their lives. I hate to break it to you but British forces are not all that much more conservative when it comes to shooting back with overwhelming firepower. Here's a video in which British soldiers not only use suppression and indirect fire, but also call in an airstrike. All things which you don't seem to accept actually happen in war because apparently in firefights everything is close and black and white.

and a comparable Marine firefight (along with some SAS guys)

[usmc123]

Oh and for the record, the Marine Corps requires that ALL Marines, not just infantry, qualify on the rifle range at up to 500 yards (460m) with ironsights.

You sure are one arrogant prick for repeatedly calling out Americans for being so close minded.

[Newfoundking]

It's starting to get heated, which is cool, but kept it civil. This is a debate, or a sharing of ideas. If it becomes an argument, I close it.

[MarkDillen]

Oh and for the record, the Marine Corps requires that ALL Marines, not just infantry, qualify on the rifle range at up to 500 yards (460m) with ironsights.

You sure are one arrogant prick for repeatedly calling out Americans for being so close minded.

call me a prick again you walking abortion, and who's the arrogant one, hell yeah we're american we rule the world woooo!

d

In the Tarnak Farm incident of April 18, 2002, four Canadian soldiers were killed and eight others injured when U.S. Air National Guard Major Harry Schmidt, dropped a laser-guided 500 lb (230 kg) bomb from his F-16 jet fighter on the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry regiment which was conducting a night firing exercise near Kandahar. Schmidt was charged with negligent manslaughter, aggravated assault, and dereliction of duty. He was found guilty of the latter charge. During testimony Schmidt blamed the incident on his use of "go pills" (authorized mild stimulants), combined with the 'fog of war'.^[70] The Canadian dead received US medals for "bravery", but no apology.

Pat Tillman, a former professional American football player, was shot and killed by American fire in April 22, 2004. An Army Special Operations Command investigation was conducted by Brigadier General Jones and the U.S. Department of Defense concluded that Pat Tillman's death was due to friendly fire aggravated by the intensity of the firefight. A more thorough investigation concluded that no hostile forces were involved in the firefight and that two allied groups fired on each other in confusion after a nearby explosive device was detonated.

Operation Medusa (2006): 1 - Two U.S. A-10 Thunderbolts accidentally strafed NATO forces in southern Afghanistan, killing Canadian Private Mark Anthony Graham.

On 5 December 2006, an F/A-18C on a Close Air Support mission in Helmand Province, Afghanistan, mistakenly attacked a trench where British Royal Marines were dug-in during a 10-hour battle with Taliban fighters, killing one Royal Marine.

Of two helicopters called in to support operations by the British Grenadier Guards and Afghan National Army forces in Helmand, the British Westland WAH-64 Apache engaged enemy forces, while the accompanying American AH-64D Apache opened fire on the Grenadiers and Afghan troops.

August 23, 2007: A USAFF-15 called in to support British ground forces in Afghanistan dropped a bomb on those forces. Three privates of the 1st Battalion, the Royal Anglian Regiment, were killed and two others were severely injured.

A U.S. Patriot missile shot down a British Panavia Tornado GR.4A of No. 13 Squadron RAF, killing the pilot and navigator.

For a country that supposedly has the best military technology in the world, you sure don't know how to use it.

[njboy13]

I like how you only showed part 2 of that video, and failed to include part 1 which explains that situation better.

Part 1

Yes, it was terrible, and probably could have been avoided. If you even bothered watching part 1, it was clearly the result of a miscommunication. They were informed that there were absolutely NO friendly forces in that area which turned out to note be true, and they were both talking about different targets.

For a country that supposedly has the best military technology in the world, you sure don't know how to use it.

You can do better? Go join the military and show 'em if you can do better.

I also like how mentioned only those American ones. I'm pretty sure if I wanted to look up some incidents such as those taking place in other countries/forces I'd be able to find quite a few, I don't really want to though because I am honestly not that interested, and I'm not dedicating my life to this topic. Accidents happen. Yes many could have been avoided, but they happen. You seem to be pretty one-sided on most of your arguments here....

[admntrs]

also, this:

[MarkDillen]

I like how you only showed part 2 of that video, and failed to include part 1 which explains that situation better.

Part 1

Yes, it was terrible, and probably could have been avoided. If you even bothered watching part 1, it was clearly the result of a miscommunication. They were informed that there were absolutely NO friendly forces in that area which turned out to note be true, and they were both talking about different targets.

You can do better? Go join the military and show 'em if you can do better.

I also like how mentioned only those American ones. I'm pretty sure if I wanted to look up some incidents such as those taking place in other countries/forces I'd be able to find quite a few, I don't really want to though because I am honestly not that interested, and I'm not dedicating my life to this topic. Accidents happen. Yes many could have been avoided, but they happen. You seem to be pretty one-sided on most of your arguments here....

i did include both parts thanks very much but it obviously didn't post but the link was included, they saw orange markings on the vehicle and still decided to fire, if in doubt leave it but that brings me back to your country shoot first don't apologise and don't answer any questions later, the 2 pilots should've been court martialed but your military said they didn't do anything wrong! We held an inquest into the death which found he was unlawfully killed but did your country allow them to be extridited here to face trial! No!

The Blues and Royals were serving as a force element of 16 Air Assault Brigade, providing an armoured reconnaissance capability to the Brigade. Four vehicles from D Squadron, two FV107 Scimitars and two FV103 Spartans, were moving North of the main force, patrolling the Forward Edge of Battle Area. The area of the patrol had been declared as a no engagement zone to the allied forces and the vehicles were marked with the agreed coalition Combat Identification markings including orange overhead canvas panels, thermal reflectors and Union Flags.

The U.S. Air Force conducted an investigation into the incident in 2003, but the results of that investigation were not publicly released, and did not result in a court-martial.^[6] Subsequent reporting of the U.S. Air Force investigation states that the investigation found fault with both pilots' actions in the incident, including, "findings of cognitive and physical task overload, ineffective communication and failure to recognise identification panels by the two pilots." The investigation report recommended administrative or disciplinary action against both pilots. Higher United States Department of Defense officials, however, cleared both pilots of any wrongdoing.^[7]

A British Army Board of Inquiry (BoI) was held in 2004, the findings of which, among others, stated that the Major authorised the Lt Colonel to attack, but no authorisation was given by controllers on the ground.^[1][8] The report was released to the family of L/CoH Hull and later to the public. It has been alleged that certain classified material available to the BoI, was withheld from the family.^[9]

• The pilots asked the Forward Air Controller ("Manila Hotel") if friendly forces were around the Iraqi vehicles — not to the west.
  
• Neither pilot gave the precise grid references for the Household Cavalry patrol to double check its identity.
  
• The pilots convinced themselves that the orange identification panels were in fact orange rocket launchers.
  
• POPOV36 decided to attack, saying he is “rolling in” without permission from the Forward Air Controller.
  
• POPOV35 asked for artillery to fire a marker round into the target area to clear up confusion, but POPOV36 attacked without waiting for it.
  
• POPOV36 strafed the column for a second time, but still doubted its identity.
  

The audio track includes debate around the identity of the targets and the order, from the FAC, to disengage identifying a likely "blue-on-blue" incident. The audio track also includes notification of one death and several injuries with the order to return to base.^[19] Subsequent audio indicates frustration and crying with the comment: "We're in jail, dude".^[20] Upon viewing the video, Matty Hull's widow, Susan, stated that the pilots were, "more concerned for themselves than their victims".^[21]

^{So next time your stupid country feeds you a bunch of lies try researching before opening your mouth.}

I hate the fact your country believe their above the law, they can kill our troops but can't take the punishment yet we have a guy called Gary Mckinnon who has asperger's syndrome that hacked into your military systems (It was the biggest hack ever).

Did he kill anyone! No, but he is still being extradited to your country.

[MarkDillen]

http://en.wikipedia....British_victims

http://www.guardian....endly-fire-iraq

I've been searching for friendly fire from British against americans but can't find any??

This was a quote from the second world war but low and behold still relevant today.

"When the British shoot, the Germans duck, when the Germans shoot, the British duck, when the Americans shoot, everybody ducks....."

[JimmyKid]

..... Really? Sounds like your telling me that if you where ordered to guard a door, with your life when your surrounded by enemies, you'll wait until they are INSIDE to shoot so that you can "Correctly Identify?" Most people in that situation would probably be pissing themselves out of fear, shooting at anything, so that they can live a few more minutes.

[Voodoo_Operator]

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa...

When people start calling each other "prick" and "walking abortion", it becomes hard to call it civilized. I promised myself I'd close this thing if it ever got out of hand, and it just has.

Also, this chocolate-pancake-and-sausage-on-a-stick thing just made me puke in the back of my mouth. Not cool.

Look at the bright side: This topic managed to stay alive for a whole two weeks, which is two weeks more than I expected it to be running before I'd have to close it.

And now, ladies and gentlemen, topic closed.

[Newfoundking]

Sorry, I know I said I'd close it, but I was too busy to notice... I promise I'll try next time, for sure... Then again, moderating a doomed debate is much less fun than making money